Mr Abbott, Mr Denny & Mr West

Mark Croucher · 30-09-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoffrey Collier

Mark Croucher: Are you saying that it is a lie that Dr Abbott, unlike many in UKIP, chose not to join an extremist political party. Are you saying that it was lie that Dr Abbott has a long record of supporting a multitude of organisations, which support black, brown, caucasian, Jewish people, etc? Are you saying that it is a lie that Dr Abbott was subjected to a NEC inquiry, at the conclusion of which, Nigel Farage supported David Abbott's admission to the NEC. Well give us the true version, what are you actually saying? If David Abbott wished to join the BNP, why did he desist from doing so?

You may remember that Adrian Lithgow was allowed to commence his duties as editor of the UKIP Independence News, despite having been convicted, by his own confession, of a racially motivated assault on a foreign railway worker. Why did you not tell the membership what had been done in their name?

I certainly value honesty in accounting: that is why I have asked for your support to commence a forensic audit. Will you please accept my request or state your reasons for a refusal? A lot of money has been disbursed for all manner of reasons: redundancy payments, legal charges, unexplained lottery donations, wine sales, employment agencies; far too numerous to mention them all in just one posting.

It is undoubtedly true that Abbott, unlike many members of UKIP, chose to donate money to a racist organisation. that he attended a fundraising dinner of the same organistion, met its leader at least twice, donated at least twice. That he attended a conference the members of whom were united in the belief that those of African origin are stupider than their white counterparts. I'm glad you find yourself in a position where you are able to defend his views, something I'd never stoop to.

Lithgow was an ar5e, but it was nothing to do with me. We didn't work together, he took over from me. His conviction was, I believe, long after I left. If it wasn't, I knew nothing about it until it was reported in the Sun, I believe.

Your calls for a forensic audit have been answered elsewhere. Even were one done, I'm sure you wouldn't be satisfied with the results, given that the accounts have been audited already and signed off.

M

Barboo · 30-09-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Croucher

It is undoubtedly true that Abbott, unlike many members of UKIP, chose to donate money to a racist organisation. that he attended a fundraising dinner of the same organistion, met its leader at least twice, donated at least twice. That he attended a conference the members of whom were united in the belief that those of African origin are stupider than their white counterparts. I'm glad you find yourself in a position where you are able to defend his views, something I'd never stoop to.

No, but you kept shtum about it for nearly two years. You knew of the allegations against David Abbott before the 2004 European elections, yet you made no formal complaint about him then, or about the SE Committee which exceeded its authority by dealing with the matter itself instead of going through the proper channel of the Disciplinary Committee. Farage, Lott, Denny and the rest of the SE Committee hushed it up, and you colluded in that. You also kept your trap shut when Abbott was selected as candidate for Winchester in the 2005 general election, and again when later that year he put up for the NEC, so cut the hypocritical claptrap - please!

Geoffrey Collier · 30-09-2008, 04:36 PM

Mark Croucher: Lithgows conviction was not long after you left, but before you left.
Having been appointed, there was a delay in your leaving. Both his offence and his conviction was between his appointment and your leaving.

Don't try and smear me Croucher. Which views are you saying that I am trying to defend? You gave accommodation to a convicted fraudster; I am prepared to believe that it was out of kindness to assist some unfortunate in distress, and not out of approbation for his criminality. You are not as generous in your assumptions about the actions of other people.

MODERATOR: Would you please ask Croucher to elucidate the precise views that he says I am able to defend? This gentleman is/was a professional journalist, and professional standards are what he must be judged by. I have no wish to see him banned/suspended but his written standards must at least be those of the layman.

Mark Croucher · 30-09-2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barboo

No, but you kept shtum about it for nearly two years. You knew of the allegations against David Abbott before the 2004 European elections, yet you made no formal complaint about him then, or about the SE Committee which exceeded its authority by dealing with the matter itself instead of going through the proper channel of the Disciplinary Committee. Farage, Lott, Denny and the rest of the SE Committee hushed it up, and you colluded in that. You also kept your trap shut when Abbott was selected as candidate for Winchester in the 2005 general election, and again when later that year he put up for the NEC, so cut the hypocritical claptrap - please!

Please find out what you're talking about before typing Barbara.

I found out Abbott was a GE candidate when I received the finalised list of candidates, and frankly I couldn't believe either that he could be so stupid as to put himself forwards, or that no-one thought to do anything about it when he did, given his past links. When I realised he was standing for the NEC, I did indeed make a formal complaint, so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

M

Mark Croucher · 30-09-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoffrey Collier

Mark Croucher: Lithgows conviction was not long after you left, but before you left.
Having been appointed, there was a delay in your leaving. Both his offence and his conviction was between his appointment and your leaving.

Don't try and smear me Croucher. Which views are you saying that I am trying to defend? You gave accommodation to a convicted fraudster; I am prepared to believe that it was out of kindness to assist some unfortunate in distress, and not out of approbation for his criminality. You are not as generous in your assumptions about the actions of other people.

MODERATOR: Would you please ask Croucher to elucidate the precise views that he says I am able to defend? This gentleman is/was a professional journalist, and professional standards are what he must be judged by. I have no wish to see him banned/suspended but his written standards must at least be those of the layman.

Ah, more inaccuracy. I was on gardening leave, so what Lithgow did was nothing to do with me. I found out about it in the Sun, the same as most others did.

And to be clear, Collier is defending a known BNP donor by saying that because he gave money to African and Jewish charities and it was a long time ago, that's OK. Perhaps he should ask some Africans or Jews how they feel? I think the basis of the problem is that it's OK for Collier to suggest any wrongdoing by any person whatsoever with impunity, but when people tell him the truth about his sources of information, he gets his knickers in a twist, because if his sources aren't what they appear to be, then probably his information isn't either.

And by the way, when you suggest that Jim Carver joined a far-right party, I'd bear in mind that he is Jewish before getting too carried away in your own flights of fancy.

M

Geoffrey Collier · 30-09-2008, 07:53 PM

Mark Croucher: I am not defending anyone, I am merely saying as a statement of fact, that David Abbott has given money to a wide range of causes. Secondly, I believe that he continues to support African, Red Indian and Jewish charities. Are you saying that Nigel Farage was wrong to support David Abbott, in his appeal to join the NEC? Or are you saying that it resulted from pangs of guilt, for having a very close association with a former National Front organiser himself? Was that same N.F. organiser later involved with the Ramsgate call centre which succeeded Ashford? As you support non-association with anyone with whom you disagree, will you confirm for the readership, that Nick Griffin is a person who has never met Nigel Farage, and he has never dined with him?
Are you confident that no person could provide information to the contrary?

Mark Croucher · 30-09-2008, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoffrey Collier

Mark Croucher: I am not defending anyone, I am merely saying as a statement of fact, that David Abbott has given money to a wide range of causes. Secondly, I believe that he continues to support African, Red Indian and Jewish charities. Are you saying that Nigel Farage was wrong to support David Abbott, in his appeal to join the NEC? Or are you saying that it resulted from pangs of guilt, for having a very close association with a former National Front organiser himself? Was that same N.F. organiser later involved with the Ramsgate call centre which succeeded Ashford? As you support non-association with anyone with whom you disagree, will you confirm for the readership, that Nick Griffin is a person who has never met Nigel Farage, and he has never dined with him?
Are you confident that no person could provide information to the contrary?

To take your points in reverse order:

Yes, I am confident.
The person to whom you refer, whose name temporarily escapes me, was open and candid about his past association with the NF, has answered questions openly and has attempted to conceal nothing. He has also never been an NEC candidate, and MEP candidate or, I think I am correct in saying, a General Election candidate. There are a small number of other people in UKIP who are in a similar position - they belonged at one time to the NF or BNP, but have been open and honest right at the beginning when they joined UKIP. This is what sets them apart from Abbott.
Yes, I disagreed with the NEC decision not to exclude Abbott, and think the decision was taken as a matter of political expediency. I believe Nigel made a great mistake in supporting his retention, and has paid for that with a number of newspaper articles on Abbott.
Finally, I don't care how many African, Jewish or American Indian charities Abbott claims to have supported, particularly as he has never mentioned them in the past. He'll be telling us that some of his best friends are black next. His donation to the BNP and his attempts to conceal them, divulging contradictory information only when his back is against the wall, can only bring harm to UKIP and throws into question his motives, particularly when he launches his campaign for 'integrity' and 'playing by the rules': not least because had he done so, he would have been excluded from his current position.

M

Geoffrey Collier · 30-09-2008, 08:40 PM

Mark Croucher: Whatever sins I may have committed in my life, joining right-wing extremist groups has not been among them. Indeed, extremism I believe, is best explained in terms of psychological types. I don't know who David Abbott has among his best friends, but I understand that he donated generously to a black American politician in his attempt to be elected to the US Senate. In any pending court case, that will be important evidence for the defence. Del Young has been a friend of David Abbott since day-one. Ask him if he discerns racism in his attitudes or utterances?

If you join a debating or discussion group, with a wide range of speakers from different social, academic and political groupings, add to that differing levels of education; university to the self-educated, you will hear many things with which you will agree and disagree. Attributing to the audience an approbation of all the speakers opinions, is not either true or sensible.

You do seem to have a sad lacking in the structure of argumentation. However, you may have an opportunity to explain your case, should documentation of a legal kind
land on your mat.

Mark Croucher · 30-09-2008, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geoffrey Collier

Mark Croucher: Whatever sins I may have committed in my life, joining right-wing extremist groups has not been among them. Indeed, extremism I believe, is best explained in terms of psychological types. I don't know who David Abbott has among his best friends, but I understand that he donated generously to a black American politician in his attempt to be elected to the US Senate. In any pending court case, that will be important evidence for the defence. Del Young has been a friend of David Abbott since day-one. Ask him if he discerns racism in his attitudes or utterances?

If you join a debating or discussion group, with a wide range of speakers from different social, academic and political groupings, add to that differing levels of education; university to the self-educated, you will hear many things with which you will agree and disagree. Attributing to the audience an approbation of all the speakers opinions, is not either true or sensible.

You do seem to have a sad lacking in the structure of argumentation. However, you may have an opportunity to explain your case, should documentation of a legal kind
land on your mat.

Except of course that one meeting with Nick Griffin could be described as an accident: two is rather more than carelessness. And attending a BNP fundraising dinner is a little more than carelessness too. His defence at the time? That he 'didn't know who the BNP were', despite claiming to have come back from the US to vote for UKIP in 1999: so what's this, an interest in British politics sufficient to know about UKIP, but, despite meeting Nick Griffin, not sufficient to know about the BNP?

Attending American Renaissance conferences is similarly careless:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

American Renaissance (abbreviated AR or AmRen) is a monthly racialist magazine published by the New Century Foundation. The magazine's founder Jared Taylor has been called a white separatist.

The magazine and foundation were founded by Jared Taylor, and the first issue was published in November 1990. A main theme of the magazine is a claim that non-white minorities pose a demographic threat to the United States and other Western nations. The magazine argues that the United States' major social problems are due to racial diversity and a weakening of the country's white racial heritage by increased non-white immigration....American Renaissance and the New Century Foundation are alleged to have had links with far right, neo-fascist and racist organizations and individuals such as: the Council of Conservative Citizens, the Pioneer Fund, the British National Party, Don Black and David Duke.[4][5] The organization has held bi-annual conferences that are open to the public and that attract 200 - 300 people. Critics say that some of those who attend are neo-Nazis, white nationalists, white separatists, Ku Klux Klan members, Holocaust deniers and eugenicists (as well as numerous protestors...... Contributors to the magazine and conferences have included Stephen Webster, Michael Levin, Nick Griffin, Bruno Gollnisch, J. Philippe Rushton, Ian Jobling, Glenn Spencer, Lawrence Auster, Richard Lynn, Sam Dickson, and Samuel Francis. It is, nevertheless, sometimes conceded[weasel words] that these movements can attract and rouse an unhelpful following that voice subtly antisemitic sentiments; some of which the magazine publishes...... According to the Anti-Defamation League [8], "The New Century Foundation - known primarily by the name of its publication, American Renaissance -- promotes 'genteel' racism: pseudoscientific, questionably researched and argued articles that validate the genetic and moral inferiority of nonwhites and the need for racial 'purity.' Generally avoiding overt bigotry and stereotyping, many of North America's leading intellectual racists have written for the journal or have addressed the biannual American Renaissance conferences."

So, not really the sort of chaps you'd care to invite around for dinner then.

And of course, you hit the nail unintentionally on the head in your first sentence: whatever your faults, you've never joined a an extremist right wing organisation. And I'll bet you've never donated to one, attended a fundraising dinner for one, or attended the conference of one either. And whatever I may think of your, ahem, 'efforts', I don't think that you would. If you did, and then lied about it until the information was dug out of public records, journalists and anti-racism foundations, admitted the latest revelation with caveats and evasions until proved wrong and then repeated that whole process, what would you expect people to think of you?

M

Barboo · 01-10-2008, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Croucher

Please find out what you're talking about before typing Barbara.

I found out Abbott was a GE candidate when I received the finalised list of candidates, and frankly I couldn't believe either that he could be so stupid as to put himself forwards, or that no-one thought to do anything about it when he did, given his past links. When I realised he was standing for the NEC, I did indeed make a formal complaint, so put that in your pipe and smoke it.

M

I know you made a complaint. It was discussed by the NEC at its meeting following the NEC elections of 2006, but that was nearly two years after you learned of the allegations against David Abbott. Had you made your complaint immediately, in 2004, there would have been a proper disciplinary enquiry into his activities and, if your complaint had been upheld, he would almost certainly not have stood in either the GE or NEC elections. Yet you kept quiet for nearly two years.

And another thing - a formal complaint, according to the party rules, has to be made in writing to the party secretary who then passes it to the Discipline Panel for consideration. It should not be discussed by the NEC at all. On what date did you write to the party secretary, and did the Discipline Panel uphold or reject your complaint?

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30-09-2008, 04:36 PM	#23 (permalink)
Geoffrey Collier Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,158	Mark Croucher: Lithgows conviction was not long after you left, but before you left. Having been appointed, there was a delay in your leaving. Both his offence and his conviction was between his appointment and your leaving. Don't try and smear me Croucher. Which views are you saying that I am trying to defend? You gave accommodation to a convicted fraudster; I am prepared to believe that it was out of kindness to assist some unfortunate in distress, and not out of approbation for his criminality. You are not as generous in your assumptions about the actions of other people. MODERATOR: Would you please ask Croucher to elucidate the precise views that he says I am able to defend? This gentleman is/was a professional journalist, and professional standards are what he must be judged by. I have no wish to see him banned/suspended but his written standards must at least be those of the layman.

30-09-2008, 07:53 PM	#26 (permalink)
Geoffrey Collier Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,158	Mark Croucher: I am not defending anyone, I am merely saying as a statement of fact, that David Abbott has given money to a wide range of causes. Secondly, I believe that he continues to support African, Red Indian and Jewish charities. Are you saying that Nigel Farage was wrong to support David Abbott, in his appeal to join the NEC? Or are you saying that it resulted from pangs of guilt, for having a very close association with a former National Front organiser himself? Was that same N.F. organiser later involved with the Ramsgate call centre which succeeded Ashford? As you support non-association with anyone with whom you disagree, will you confirm for the readership, that Nick Griffin is a person who has never met Nigel Farage, and he has never dined with him? Are you confident that no person could provide information to the contrary?

30-09-2008, 08:40 PM	#28 (permalink)
Geoffrey Collier Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,158	Mark Croucher: Whatever sins I may have committed in my life, joining right-wing extremist groups has not been among them. Indeed, extremism I believe, is best explained in terms of psychological types. I don't know who David Abbott has among his best friends, but I understand that he donated generously to a black American politician in his attempt to be elected to the US Senate. In any pending court case, that will be important evidence for the defence. Del Young has been a friend of David Abbott since day-one. Ask him if he discerns racism in his attitudes or utterances? If you join a debating or discussion group, with a wide range of speakers from different social, academic and political groupings, add to that differing levels of education; university to the self-educated, you will hear many things with which you will agree and disagree. Attributing to the audience an approbation of all the speakers opinions, is not either true or sensible. You do seem to have a sad lacking in the structure of argumentation. However, you may have an opportunity to explain your case, should documentation of a legal kind land on your mat.