Should UKIP abort its MEP strategy?

progcon.org · 03-08-2008, 08:38 PM

Mick,
Some opinion from Czech president Vaclav Klaus could be invaluable. He was reported in the Telegraph in June declaring the Treaty dead due to the Irish No vote.

The Wikipedia page seems very helpful for your request:
Treaty of Lisbon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

mrabody · 03-08-2008, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

mrabody,

The recent by-election results show our vote declining in places such as Lincolnshire, where we really had a chance of making the final push to take seats. I know in Surrey and Sussex and Swindon there are moves going on to increase the vote, but in Oxfordshire we appear moribund. A committee member from where I live would rather indulge in the attempt to prosecute people for treason that is time barred and give succour to the convicted fraudster Mote by attending his meetings than fight elections in David Cameron's constituency. There is no national presence, no national effort and, for reasons discussed a thousand times, no national leadership.

You paint a dismal picture - perhaps we should all give up on UKIP, go home and concentrate on more important things (sailing, piano, and car restoration in my case. I can't created a national presence, a national effort, or national leadership. I have made proposals as to what I believe I can do at a regional level to make UKIP more competitive. I hear a lot of complaining and a lot of quibbling from lots of people on this forum but rarely any constructive solutions to UKIP's problems, or even constructive criticisms of my ideas and platform.

Quote:

If the Irish have not ratified the Lisbon treaty by the time of our next GE then Cameron's promise for a referendum will take half our votes. By winning back the marginals Cameron can deliver on a referendum; with 1% in the opinion polls UKIP will not be seen as able to achieve that and we will be pointed at as people who would ruin the chance of getting a referendum by splitting the vote. UKIP voters are largely disillusioned Tories; BNP are disillusioned Labour. A possible scenario is that suburban UKIP will be squeezed by Tory referendum promises whilst urban Labour sees BNP votes reducing its core vote. BNP will take 3 or 4 seats, we'll take none and the Tories will have free rein for a generation.

Whilst there are lots of disillusioned Tories who become UKIPers, UKIP voters tend to be former Labour voters. UKIPs elected councillors are all located in areas that are traditionally Labour.

Will Cameron promise a Referendum? Perhaps. But so far he has been a bit of a wet noodle when it comes to the EU. We will have to see. Also, if the BNP couldn't capitalize on anti-Labour sentiment in this years local elections to capture 40+ seats then what makes you think they can mount a region-wide campaign in any part of the country for the Euro elections.

Aardvark · 03-08-2008, 09:28 PM

Sorry, I was not clear, I meant at the GE where BNP targetting will be more successful than UKIP targetting. I'm not sure we really know our strongholds.

jim h · 04-08-2008, 06:37 AM

Progcon,
Your statement about Cameron with which I disagreed was and I quote:-

"Cameron's pledge is unequivocal. He has pledged to give the British people a vote on the Lisbon Treaty, and has pledged to campaign for a 'no' vote. That couldn't be any clearer."

That is a very different statement from that which you claim when you replied to my clarification of what Cameron's actual position is.i.e if not ratified referendum OK , if ratified effectively nothing, by the time he is elected.
Given that there is very unlikely to be a general election before it is ratified since Labour/Brown will stay until early 2010 , Cameron is not worried that he will ever have to implement his promise of a referendum. Effectively his promise is another ( a la get out of EPP ) con to get Eurosceptics on his side for next year's election and then ignore tham afterwards once the EU apparatchics get to work on him.

Bob FM · 04-08-2008, 07:15 AM

There is a common misconception that Germany have ratified. The Parliament has said yes but the Germany Constitutional Court has yet to hand down it's judgement on the validity of the ratification given the whole process needs 100% ratification. We have seen over the smoking ban that the Constitutional Court makes judgements based on democracy and could well say no. Jim H, I totally agree with your assessment of Cameron's game.

progcon.org · 04-08-2008, 08:10 AM

Don't be an @rse Jim, this was supposed to be a constructive thread about stopping the ratification of the LT not another an@l misreading of each other's words.

The whole point of my strategy is that it only applies *before* ratification (because of the limit to the pledge) by strategically cornering someone who has made a pledge he does not want to deliver, so I am not going to repeat it in every sentence for the benefit of those who just want to parrot back a list of events that we are all perfectly aware of!

You could also have reminded me that Cameron was elected in December 2005, that he is a member of the Conservative Party, that he is male etc. But it would have just be a further farking waste of everyone's time wouldn't it?

Anyway, I suspected I would be knocking my head against the wall, not in terms of getting you to agree with me but trying to make you look outside the box of UKIP's current strategy.

Should I post again, I will for your benefit, assume that everyone is ignorant to any political facts and will give a full chronological history before adding any comment or opinion. OK, Jim? D'oh! ;-)

Bob FM · 04-08-2008, 08:59 AM

progcon.org for God sake don't do that there are enough on here that do that already. It makes such boring reading being reminded constantly of the history as to why we are here.

mark starr · 05-08-2008, 07:20 AM

Progcon,
You are the @rse as you never make yourself clear and continue to advance ideas outside of the UKIP box most of which have been tried and failed or are totally away with the fairies.
Wake up , as several posts have said we will live or die by UKIP . Cameron is a puff ball and a proven liar.

progcon.org · 05-08-2008, 08:55 AM

OK Mark, please accept my apologies. I'll ensure I explain my posts with enough simplicity for a four-year old to understand in future to avoid leaving you behind! ;-)

Aardvark · 05-08-2008, 09:01 AM

progcon, Type them slowly for me as well.

03-08-2008, 09:28 PM	#63 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,918	Sorry, I was not clear, I meant at the GE where BNP targetting will be more successful than UKIP targetting. I'm not sure we really know our strongholds. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

04-08-2008, 08:10 AM	#66 (permalink)
progcon.org Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 934	Don't be an @rse Jim, this was supposed to be a constructive thread about stopping the ratification of the LT not another an@l misreading of each other's words. The whole point of my strategy is that it only applies before ratification (because of the limit to the pledge) by strategically cornering someone who has made a pledge he does not want to deliver, so I am not going to repeat it in every sentence for the benefit of those who just want to parrot back a list of events that we are all perfectly aware of! You could also have reminded me that Cameron was elected in December 2005, that he is a member of the Conservative Party, that he is male etc. But it would have just be a further farking waste of everyone's time wouldn't it? Anyway, I suspected I would be knocking my head against the wall, not in terms of getting you to agree with me but trying to make you look outside the box of UKIP's current strategy. Should I post again, I will for your benefit, assume that everyone is ignorant to any political facts and will give a full chronological history before adding any comment or opinion. OK, Jim? D'oh! ;-) Last edited by progcon.org; 04-08-2008 at 08:13 AM.

05-08-2008, 09:01 AM	#70 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,918	progcon, Type them slowly for me as well. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

03-08-2008, 08:38 PM	#61 (permalink)
progcon.org Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 934	Mick, Some opinion from Czech president Vaclav Klaus could be invaluable. He was reported in the Telegraph in June declaring the Treaty dead due to the Irish No vote. The Wikipedia page seems very helpful for your request: Treaty of Lisbon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

04-08-2008, 06:37 AM	#64 (permalink)
jim h Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 361	Progcon, Your statement about Cameron with which I disagreed was and I quote:- "Cameron's pledge is unequivocal. He has pledged to give the British people a vote on the Lisbon Treaty, and has pledged to campaign for a 'no' vote. That couldn't be any clearer." That is a very different statement from that which you claim when you replied to my clarification of what Cameron's actual position is.i.e if not ratified referendum OK , if ratified effectively nothing, by the time he is elected. Given that there is very unlikely to be a general election before it is ratified since Labour/Brown will stay until early 2010 , Cameron is not worried that he will ever have to implement his promise of a referendum. Effectively his promise is another ( a la get out of EPP ) con to get Eurosceptics on his side for next year's election and then ignore tham afterwards once the EU apparatchics get to work on him.

04-08-2008, 07:15 AM	#65 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,530	There is a common misconception that Germany have ratified. The Parliament has said yes but the Germany Constitutional Court has yet to hand down it's judgement on the validity of the ratification given the whole process needs 100% ratification. We have seen over the smoking ban that the Constitutional Court makes judgements based on democracy and could well say no. Jim H, I totally agree with your assessment of Cameron's game.

04-08-2008, 08:59 AM	#67 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,530	progcon.org for God sake don't do that there are enough on here that do that already. It makes such boring reading being reminded constantly of the history as to why we are here.

05-08-2008, 07:20 AM	#68 (permalink)
mark starr Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 642	Progcon, You are the @rse as you never make yourself clear and continue to advance ideas outside of the UKIP box most of which have been tried and failed or are totally away with the fairies. Wake up , as several posts have said we will live or die by UKIP . Cameron is a puff ball and a proven liar.

05-08-2008, 08:55 AM	#69 (permalink)
progcon.org Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 934	OK Mark, please accept my apologies. I'll ensure I explain my posts with enough simplicity for a four-year old to understand in future to avoid leaving you behind! ;-)