Should UKIP abort its MEP strategy?

progcon.org · 02-08-2008, 03:09 PM

"If you are opposed to EU funding for UKIP, how do you propose that we raise sufficient funding from other sources to replace that source of funding?"

I proposed that above. A non-partisan referendum party, focussed on nothing but obtaining a referendum, where the MP's revert to their original party colours as soon as the referendum is delivered.

By bringing together both sides pro and anti, united by a democratic call for a referendum, it will generate much positive media coverage and voluntary donations.

I think I more than showed during my time as a UKIP member that you can generate more international press coverage (webcameron.info, purplealliance, ukip secondlife) with interesting ideas that appeal to the media and they cost next to nothing.

UKIP has the right aim, just the wrong strategy. Getting more people to paddle a canoe that is facing in the wrong direction will just get it further from the right place more quickly.

Tim Worstall · 02-08-2008, 03:39 PM

"I bet that with such a strategy, millions of small and large donations will voluntarily flow into the party."

I bet you they wouldn't you know.

They didn't to the Referendum Party.

progcon.org · 02-08-2008, 03:45 PM

Two major differences Tim:

#1 Timing. All three parties pledged a referendum in 2005. It has not been delivered.
#2 Non-partisan. It is vital that the party is seen not to support either outcome. It would be hard to argue that the RP got this balance, in public perception terms, right.

Raymond Finch · 02-08-2008, 05:14 PM

1) Not on in or out. Only on Lisbon.
2) But we would not be. Obviously. What you are calling for is an entirely different party. What credibility as an impartial campaigner would a party that was formerly an "independence" party have?

progcon.org · 02-08-2008, 05:24 PM

"What you are calling for is an entirely different party."

I am indeed. Headed by a respected, politically experienced eusceptic and respected euphile. I am not proposing to change UKIP, but to seek an alternative approach entirely.

UKIP is not getting us any closer to EU withdrawal, but it has genuine, passionate campaigners who could make a real different if pointed in the right direction.

I'd love to see Nigel as the eusceptic co-leader. The MEP strategy has failed. UKIP as a vehicle is not going to achieve eu withdrawal.

Tim Worstall · 02-08-2008, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by progcon.org

Two major differences Tim:

#1 Timing. All three parties pledged a referendum in 2005. It has not been delivered.
#2 Non-partisan. It is vital that the party is seen not to support either outcome. It would be hard to argue that the RP got this balance, in public perception terms, right.

I know, I'm just terribly suspicious of arguments that start "but this time it will be different!"

Raymond Finch · 02-08-2008, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by progcon.org

"What you are calling for is an entirely different party."

I am indeed. Headed by a respected, politically experienced eusceptic and respected euphile. I am not proposing to change UKIP, but to seek an alternative approach entirely.

UKIP is not getting us any closer to EU withdrawal, but it has genuine, passionate campaigners who could make a real different if pointed in the right direction.

I'd love to see Nigel as the eusceptic co-leader. The MEP strategy has failed. UKIP as a vehicle is not going to achieve eu withdrawal.

who precisely?

Who will co-lead? Has it ever worked before?

Who would point us in "the right" direction? And this direction would just happen to be yours would it?

If you are so convinced of the efficacy of such a party, why not start it now?

progcon.org · 02-08-2008, 05:34 PM

Tim, question for you. How do you combine the financial help of people like Stuart Wheeler with Eu withdrawal? You need a solution that achieves the goal but does not harm the Tory Party.

That is why UKIP struggles to find big donors, as these donors generally fear harming the Tory Party.

A solution like an rp party where the MP's revert to their previous party colours as soon as the referendum is complete could potentially achieve that. I'm not saying that I have found the perfect solution, but I hope you can see the financial condundrum I am addressing. That's why I am putting the ideas out there to get people thinking differently.

Big money is never going to flow into UKIP because those potential donors most sympathetic to the cause fear the knock-on impact of a stronger UKIP for the Tories, thus the cause is doomed to be marginalised.

progcon.org · 02-08-2008, 05:37 PM

"If you are so convinced of the efficacy of such a party, why not start it now?"

Because it would have to be organised by a respected eusceptic and euphile. I have neither the experience nor interest to do so. This isn't about me, it is about a frank discussion of possible more effective ways to achieve EU withdrawal. I am just putting an idea out there.

None of the many and true supporters of eu withdrawal within UKIP would care if the party died if some other vehicle presented a better chance of achieving the goal. Do you agree?

jim h · 02-08-2008, 06:01 PM

UKIP is known , previous attempts to form new anti-eu parties have sunk without trace. The classic example being a couple of years ago some disaffected members in the South West set up their own Party where is it now
As long as we have an EU our MEPs need to be there to be able to put a little bit of grit in the wheels , to expose what would otherwise be hidden and to get money for the cause.
Europhiles would be delighted if dissolved ourselves or became an ineffective pressure Group e.g BOO campaign, Open Europe.
I dont like it that we have to participate in the body we hate but you sure as hell wont be able to do anything by sticking your head in the sand.

02-08-2008, 03:09 PM	#11 (permalink)
progcon.org Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 934	"If you are opposed to EU funding for UKIP, how do you propose that we raise sufficient funding from other sources to replace that source of funding?" I proposed that above. A non-partisan referendum party, focussed on nothing but obtaining a referendum, where the MP's revert to their original party colours as soon as the referendum is delivered. By bringing together both sides pro and anti, united by a democratic call for a referendum, it will generate much positive media coverage and voluntary donations. I think I more than showed during my time as a UKIP member that you can generate more international press coverage (webcameron.info, purplealliance, ukip secondlife) with interesting ideas that appeal to the media and they cost next to nothing. UKIP has the right aim, just the wrong strategy. Getting more people to paddle a canoe that is facing in the wrong direction will just get it further from the right place more quickly. Last edited by progcon.org; 02-08-2008 at 03:18 PM.

02-08-2008, 03:45 PM	#13 (permalink)
progcon.org Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 934	Two major differences Tim: #1 Timing. All three parties pledged a referendum in 2005. It has not been delivered. #2 Non-partisan. It is vital that the party is seen not to support either outcome. It would be hard to argue that the RP got this balance, in public perception terms, right. Last edited by progcon.org; 02-08-2008 at 03:54 PM.

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02-08-2008, 03:39 PM	#12 (permalink)
Tim Worstall Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 65	"I bet that with such a strategy, millions of small and large donations will voluntarily flow into the party." I bet you they wouldn't you know. They didn't to the Referendum Party.

02-08-2008, 05:14 PM	#14 (permalink)
Raymond Finch Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 487	1) Not on in or out. Only on Lisbon. 2) But we would not be. Obviously. What you are calling for is an entirely different party. What credibility as an impartial campaigner would a party that was formerly an "independence" party have?

02-08-2008, 05:24 PM	#15 (permalink)
progcon.org Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 934	"What you are calling for is an entirely different party." I am indeed. Headed by a respected, politically experienced eusceptic and respected euphile. I am not proposing to change UKIP, but to seek an alternative approach entirely. UKIP is not getting us any closer to EU withdrawal, but it has genuine, passionate campaigners who could make a real different if pointed in the right direction. I'd love to see Nigel as the eusceptic co-leader. The MEP strategy has failed. UKIP as a vehicle is not going to achieve eu withdrawal.

02-08-2008, 05:34 PM	#18 (permalink)
progcon.org Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 934	Tim, question for you. How do you combine the financial help of people like Stuart Wheeler with Eu withdrawal? You need a solution that achieves the goal but does not harm the Tory Party. That is why UKIP struggles to find big donors, as these donors generally fear harming the Tory Party. A solution like an rp party where the MP's revert to their previous party colours as soon as the referendum is complete could potentially achieve that. I'm not saying that I have found the perfect solution, but I hope you can see the financial condundrum I am addressing. That's why I am putting the ideas out there to get people thinking differently. Big money is never going to flow into UKIP because those potential donors most sympathetic to the cause fear the knock-on impact of a stronger UKIP for the Tories, thus the cause is doomed to be marginalised.

02-08-2008, 05:37 PM	#19 (permalink)
progcon.org Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 934	"If you are so convinced of the efficacy of such a party, why not start it now?" Because it would have to be organised by a respected eusceptic and euphile. I have neither the experience nor interest to do so. This isn't about me, it is about a frank discussion of possible more effective ways to achieve EU withdrawal. I am just putting an idea out there. None of the many and true supporters of eu withdrawal within UKIP would care if the party died if some other vehicle presented a better chance of achieving the goal. Do you agree?

02-08-2008, 06:01 PM	#20 (permalink)
jim h Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 358	UKIP is known , previous attempts to form new anti-eu parties have sunk without trace. The classic example being a couple of years ago some disaffected members in the South West set up their own Party where is it now As long as we have an EU our MEPs need to be there to be able to put a little bit of grit in the wheels , to expose what would otherwise be hidden and to get money for the cause. Europhiles would be delighted if dissolved ourselves or became an ineffective pressure Group e.g BOO campaign, Open Europe. I dont like it that we have to participate in the body we hate but you sure as hell wont be able to do anything by sticking your head in the sand.