A Response to Mr Wise from the Ind/Dem Group

gawain · 24-06-2008, 03:37 PM

I have been asked to put this response from the Sectretary General of the Ind/Dem Group onto the forum as a response to the open letter from Tom Wise

My poor Tom,

What an ugly thing to do: trying to hurt former friends with a series of whole and half lies, half truth and misunderstandings. Since OLAF went after you and apparently found you wanting (have they not sent your case to the "relevant British authorities"?), it is as if the group, as if UKIP is guilty of your own financial mistakes, or that you would wish we all would have the same difficulties you have now. What strange behaviour that I quite frankly didn't expect from someone who called me a friend.... But anyway, in my language (Flemish, from Flanders' fields, you know) there's a saying that ingratitude is the way of the world. In English one would say 'eaten bread is soon forgotten'.

But I am angry, Tom, about the lies you are telling about your old friends. Now that I am into popular sayings, I'd like to add this one: dogs are biting the hand of those that feed them.

The group's accounts are perfectly clean, always were and always will be. I am secretary general of euro sceptical political groups since 1984 (yes, almost 25 years now), and we NEVER had one negative remark. Because we simply can't afford it Tom. You should know that: our political opponents would love to see us convicted for financial misuse of public funds. That is why we (I mean the group's secretariat) is so severe in judging the justification of a proposed expense. And that is why the group preferred to put you in 'quarantine' after the allegations against you about financial misbehaviour.

We claim to manage the group's finances with open books: all group MEP's and the parliaments administration know that our books are at all moments available to them. You are writing that "UKIP MEP's are generally kept in the dark about financial matters". That is a shameless lie. Transparence and openess are our standards, and everyone knows that.

The issue about pan-european political parties is something you know nothing about, since UKIP always did stay out of this. There always were and still are two tendencies in the group: the Independents, and that is UKIP who want the UK to leave the EU. And the others, the Democrats, who want to transform the EU, want more power for the members states, demand referenda (everyone - except you probably -acknowledges that without the intense Ind/Dem information campaign, Ireland would have voted YES, but that must be the least of your concerns). UKIP always wanted to stay totally independent in their policy, their interventions, activities, voting attitude and so on. This is why they categorically refuse to be member of so called transnational political parties. I can see the logic. You suggest that UKIP is supporting EUD. Again a lie: UKIP always has refused to support any transnational organisation in the EU.

The other MEP's and political parties consider that their political influence might be enforced by working together with other euro sceptical parties throughout the EU. And that is why they did found indeed the EUD. You are accusing now Ind/Dem to support EUD financially. This is again a shameless lie. We never transferred a single dime to EUD, nor did Ind/Dem pay for staff members of EUD. Your letter to Mr. Römer, the Secretary General of the Parliament is full of false allegations. I went to Mr. Römer and invited him to send the EP financial directorate to the group in order to control our books.

Your story about half of the Ind/Dem staff being member of the board of EUD is again a lie. Some of our staff did help EUD at the very beginning of their existence, in order to find enough members, political parties throughout the EU. That was the PROVISIONAL Board as you mention. But go and look at their website, and you will see who are the members. One (1) staff member of Ind/Dem is vice President, and she, as head campaigner of Ind/Dem, takes care only of the coordination with the activities/campaigns of the parties. What's wrong with this? Your information proves to be disinformation, Tom.

Your story about Mr. Bonde, our former President is an example of deliberate incomplete information. How could you do that, Tom? And why? You know perfectly well that Mr. Bonde resigned from the EP because of a made agreement with his own party in Denmark: he is giving all the chances to the runner up to prepare well for the elections in 2009. But Bonde is our number One in campaigning against the Constitution and thus against the Lisbon Treaty. He is very well known in lots of EU countries. The moment of his resignation was difficult: in the middle of the Ind/Dem information campaign in Ireland! And it is true that he was thinking a moment to move to Brussels, simply because it would be easier for him to manage the campaigns. But how? As an Ind/Dem MEP that was no longer possible. Paid by Ind/Dem? A majority of the MEP's found that difficult to defend (your shameless allegations are the proof that we were sensible NOT to do that). He is president of the transnational party of eurosceptical parties, EUD, and they will take care of that problem. So it was decided.

You are writing that two EUD members are employed by Ind/Dem. Who? It's easy to accuse and quote no names. As our books, our payrolls are open for info, and I did invite the secretary general to study these as well. You are writing that "requests for an Ind/Dem staff organigram have simply been ignored". What a shame, Tom. You were the first to study it in order to make sure that on top of your assistants (normally paid by your secretarial allowances, the sums that you have misused to buy a car; and that you had to pay back to the EP) you would get the help of a staff member paid by the Ind/Dem group. And you got it!

You are even suggesting that I did subject staff who asked difficult questions to disciplinary action. Wrong again! I did chase them out of the office of a colleague they wanted to use in order to accuse us for hacking their emails. Nice staff you have, Tom!

You are suggesting that I am under pressure now because the group would be "subject of a formal investigation". My poor Tom: I myself asked for this investigation!!!
Was I "summoned to the office of the EP's secretary general Harald Römer"? Indeed, Harald called me to inform me about your letter. As I said, I have invited the EP administration to look into our books and staff establishment whenever they wanted.

What a sad thing, all together, to have to go through all these quarrels, fights, accusations, threats....

But don't worry, Tom, it's not the first time that I get a dagger in my back. You better go on making the "shedloads as an MEP and find it cushy" as you said to the News of the World, and spend your time in Brussels trying to make life of your former friend (what did I do wrong, for Heaven's sake?) impossible. But you won't succeed, because it's simply not true what your are trying to make the UKIP members believe. I still owe you the bottle of UKIP labelled champagne you gave me for all my help during the financial investigation against you. I can't possibly drink it, because it would taste very sour.

And please take one last advice from me, Tom: when you are in a hole, you better stop digging!

Herman Verheirstraeten
Secretary General
Ind/Dem group

Anthony Butcher · 24-06-2008, 03:52 PM

Oh the joy of public slanging matches

Bob FM · 24-06-2008, 04:32 PM

Tom Wise is destroying himself but like so many who do wrong he is is trying to offload blame.

chikrodah · 24-06-2008, 05:57 PM

There are some that would say the Ind/Dem group would have been better off indulging in dignified silence.

Petrina · 24-06-2008, 09:08 PM

Is this a spoof ? It certainly reads like one .

T.N.Warry · 24-06-2008, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petrina

Is this a spoof ? It certainly reads like one .

I was going to ask that as well but felt a bit silly to ask!! Still glad you have asked Petrina.
Now who knows tthe answer??

SponPlague · 24-06-2008, 10:33 PM

We should not mock those for whom English is probably not their first language...

Bob FM · 25-06-2008, 04:27 AM

They're dammed if they do and dammed is they don't. I think language aside Tom Wises post is shown up for what it is. Someone looking to excuse their own behaviour.

eublues · 25-06-2008, 07:49 AM

Though a bit flowery and long-winded, the Ind-Dem Secretary General seems to have made a comprehensive rebuttal of Wise's claims, and his dismay and anger at Wise seems to be genuine and well targeted.

Bob FM · 25-06-2008, 08:37 AM

eublues, agreed, we do however expect the usual suspects to pour scorn.

24-06-2008, 03:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
gawain Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 268	A Response to Mr Wise from the Ind/Dem Group I have been asked to put this response from the Sectretary General of the Ind/Dem Group onto the forum as a response to the open letter from Tom Wise My poor Tom, What an ugly thing to do: trying to hurt former friends with a series of whole and half lies, half truth and misunderstandings. Since OLAF went after you and apparently found you wanting (have they not sent your case to the "relevant British authorities"?), it is as if the group, as if UKIP is guilty of your own financial mistakes, or that you would wish we all would have the same difficulties you have now. What strange behaviour that I quite frankly didn't expect from someone who called me a friend.... But anyway, in my language (Flemish, from Flanders' fields, you know) there's a saying that ingratitude is the way of the world. In English one would say 'eaten bread is soon forgotten'. But I am angry, Tom, about the lies you are telling about your old friends. Now that I am into popular sayings, I'd like to add this one: dogs are biting the hand of those that feed them. The group's accounts are perfectly clean, always were and always will be. I am secretary general of euro sceptical political groups since 1984 (yes, almost 25 years now), and we NEVER had one negative remark. Because we simply can't afford it Tom. You should know that: our political opponents would love to see us convicted for financial misuse of public funds. That is why we (I mean the group's secretariat) is so severe in judging the justification of a proposed expense. And that is why the group preferred to put you in 'quarantine' after the allegations against you about financial misbehaviour. We claim to manage the group's finances with open books: all group MEP's and the parliaments administration know that our books are at all moments available to them. You are writing that "UKIP MEP's are generally kept in the dark about financial matters". That is a shameless lie. Transparence and openess are our standards, and everyone knows that. The issue about pan-european political parties is something you know nothing about, since UKIP always did stay out of this. There always were and still are two tendencies in the group: the Independents, and that is UKIP who want the UK to leave the EU. And the others, the Democrats, who want to transform the EU, want more power for the members states, demand referenda (everyone - except you probably -acknowledges that without the intense Ind/Dem information campaign, Ireland would have voted YES, but that must be the least of your concerns). UKIP always wanted to stay totally independent in their policy, their interventions, activities, voting attitude and so on. This is why they categorically refuse to be member of so called transnational political parties. I can see the logic. You suggest that UKIP is supporting EUD. Again a lie: UKIP always has refused to support any transnational organisation in the EU. The other MEP's and political parties consider that their political influence might be enforced by working together with other euro sceptical parties throughout the EU. And that is why they did found indeed the EUD. You are accusing now Ind/Dem to support EUD financially. This is again a shameless lie. We never transferred a single dime to EUD, nor did Ind/Dem pay for staff members of EUD. Your letter to Mr. Römer, the Secretary General of the Parliament is full of false allegations. I went to Mr. Römer and invited him to send the EP financial directorate to the group in order to control our books. Your story about half of the Ind/Dem staff being member of the board of EUD is again a lie. Some of our staff did help EUD at the very beginning of their existence, in order to find enough members, political parties throughout the EU. That was the PROVISIONAL Board as you mention. But go and look at their website, and you will see who are the members. One (1) staff member of Ind/Dem is vice President, and she, as head campaigner of Ind/Dem, takes care only of the coordination with the activities/campaigns of the parties. What's wrong with this? Your information proves to be disinformation, Tom. Your story about Mr. Bonde, our former President is an example of deliberate incomplete information. How could you do that, Tom? And why? You know perfectly well that Mr. Bonde resigned from the EP because of a made agreement with his own party in Denmark: he is giving all the chances to the runner up to prepare well for the elections in 2009. But Bonde is our number One in campaigning against the Constitution and thus against the Lisbon Treaty. He is very well known in lots of EU countries. The moment of his resignation was difficult: in the middle of the Ind/Dem information campaign in Ireland! And it is true that he was thinking a moment to move to Brussels, simply because it would be easier for him to manage the campaigns. But how? As an Ind/Dem MEP that was no longer possible. Paid by Ind/Dem? A majority of the MEP's found that difficult to defend (your shameless allegations are the proof that we were sensible NOT to do that). He is president of the transnational party of eurosceptical parties, EUD, and they will take care of that problem. So it was decided. You are writing that two EUD members are employed by Ind/Dem. Who? It's easy to accuse and quote no names. As our books, our payrolls are open for info, and I did invite the secretary general to study these as well. You are writing that "requests for an Ind/Dem staff organigram have simply been ignored". What a shame, Tom. You were the first to study it in order to make sure that on top of your assistants (normally paid by your secretarial allowances, the sums that you have misused to buy a car; and that you had to pay back to the EP) you would get the help of a staff member paid by the Ind/Dem group. And you got it! You are even suggesting that I did subject staff who asked difficult questions to disciplinary action. Wrong again! I did chase them out of the office of a colleague they wanted to use in order to accuse us for hacking their emails. Nice staff you have, Tom! You are suggesting that I am under pressure now because the group would be "subject of a formal investigation". My poor Tom: I myself asked for this investigation!!! Was I "summoned to the office of the EP's secretary general Harald Römer"? Indeed, Harald called me to inform me about your letter. As I said, I have invited the EP administration to look into our books and staff establishment whenever they wanted. What a sad thing, all together, to have to go through all these quarrels, fights, accusations, threats.... But don't worry, Tom, it's not the first time that I get a dagger in my back. You better go on making the "shedloads as an MEP and find it cushy" as you said to the News of the World, and spend your time in Brussels trying to make life of your former friend (what did I do wrong, for Heaven's sake?) impossible. But you won't succeed, because it's simply not true what your are trying to make the UKIP members believe. I still owe you the bottle of UKIP labelled champagne you gave me for all my help during the financial investigation against you. I can't possibly drink it, because it would taste very sour. And please take one last advice from me, Tom: when you are in a hole, you better stop digging! Herman Verheirstraeten Secretary General Ind/Dem group

24-06-2008, 03:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
Anthony Butcher Administrator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Long Ashton, Bristol Posts: 9,823 Party: None	Oh the joy of public slanging matches __________________ If you care about what's in your food and where it comes from, then get it labelled! Label My Food - http://www.labelmyfood.org.uk

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24-06-2008, 04:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,126	Tom Wise is destroying himself but like so many who do wrong he is is trying to offload blame.

24-06-2008, 05:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
chikrodah Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Midlands Posts: 1,525	There are some that would say the Ind/Dem group would have been better off indulging in dignified silence.

24-06-2008, 09:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
Petrina Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: sussex Posts: 993	Is this a spoof ? It certainly reads like one .

24-06-2008, 10:33 PM	#7 (permalink)
SponPlague Uber Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Zurich Posts: 2,478	We should not mock those for whom English is probably not their first language...

25-06-2008, 04:27 AM	#8 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,126	They're dammed if they do and dammed is they don't. I think language aside Tom Wises post is shown up for what it is. Someone looking to excuse their own behaviour.

25-06-2008, 07:49 AM	#9 (permalink)
eublues Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,009	Though a bit flowery and long-winded, the Ind-Dem Secretary General seems to have made a comprehensive rebuttal of Wise's claims, and his dismay and anger at Wise seems to be genuine and well targeted.

25-06-2008, 08:37 AM	#10 (permalink)
Bob FM Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: South Marston Swindon Posts: 1,126	eublues, agreed, we do however expect the usual suspects to pour scorn.