State education no longer works, except for grammar schools

London Orbital · 11-10-2008, 02:39 AM

Police called as parents cause havoc at grammar school exam

Tim Ross, Education Correspondent

10.10.08

Police called as parents cause havoc at grammar school exam | News

Police had to be called in to prevent "havoc" breaking out when parents swamped the entrance exam for a London grammar school.

Almost 1,500 pupils were competing for 126 places at Wallington County Grammar School in Sutton, threatening to create chaos.

Elsewhere, police are said to have been called on to help chaperone thousands of parents from railway stations on the day of the exams.

The credit crunch is forcing parents to attempt to save money on private school fees by sending their children to state grammars, according to experts.

But soaring demand has seen schools overwhelmed on 11-plus day.

Tina Marden, admissions secretary at Wallington, which has 880 pupils, said: "We had to have the police to control parking. We are on a red route and, if we didn't, people would cause havoc. The credit crunch does seem like an obvious thing that is affecting choices for parents at the moment."

Fewer parents than usual withdrew their children from the school to send them private last year, she said.

There are at least 10 applicants for every place at the most highly rated grammars. Competition appears to have intensified during the credit crunch. According to the Good Schools Guide, applications at almost one in five private schools have fallen by 10 per cent in four years, with the main winners being the selective grammar schools.

Last year at Wallington, 98 per cent of pupils scored at least five A*-C grades at GCSE including English and maths.

Robert McCartney QC, chairman of the National Grammar Schools Association, said applications across the country had reached record levels this year amid soaring demand from "aspirational parents". "One of the effects of the credit crunch is that those people who were just able to make the fees are no longer able to do so," he said.

"Because of the poor state of the comprehensive system they are desperate to get their children into grammar schools."

A Metropolitan Police spokesman confirmed that safer neighbourhood teams attended last month's exams at Wallington.

BonnieDundee · 11-10-2008, 02:45 AM

Grammar schools are good because they take the best pupils. If they took in more they wouldn't be as good. Personally I wouldn't want to pay bloody taxes for them if my kids didn't get in.

London Orbital · 11-10-2008, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

Grammar schools are good because they take the best pupils. If they took in more they wouldn't be as good. Personally I wouldn't want to pay bloody taxes for them if my kids didn't get in.

Existing grammar schools probably couldn't take in many more pupils anyway.

There might be a good case for creating more grammar schools without diminishing their quality too much.

The real difficulty though is that the level of education now offered in comprehensives appears to be so different in kind - so unchallenging.

It is not just the quality of the pupils, but the sheer lack of quality in what comprehensives have to offer that leads to desperation among parents.

BonnieDundee · 11-10-2008, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by London Orbital

Existing grammar schools probably couldn't take in many more pupils anyway.

There might be a good case for creating more grammar schools without diminishing their quality too much.

The real difficulty though is that the level of education now offered in comprehensives appears to be so different in kind - so unchallenging.

It is not just the quality of the pupils, but the sheer lack of quality in what comprehensives have to offer that leads to desperation among parents.

I went to both a grammar school and a comprehenisve and I prefered the later personally.

I'm not a great fan of traditional schooling, I prefer the ideas of Rudoplh Steiner, the Montessori movement and similar.

It is hard to see how you good dilute the pool of Grammer school students and have the same quality. I think it would be far better to reform comprehensives, plus then we wouldn't have to pay tax money to schools that don't teach all the students.

Although I suppose it isn't as bad as Australia where there are massive state subsidies for "private" schools.

British-Conservatism · 11-10-2008, 01:28 PM

There is an Elephant in the room here.
Why do all these parents really choose this school?

London Orbital · 11-10-2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

I went to both a grammar school and a comprehenisve and I prefered the later personally.

Yes - the grammar school I went to improved a lot when it went comprehensive.

Reasons: it moved to a better area and it began to have girls in it.
So there are other factors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BonnieDundee

It is hard to see how you good dilute the pool of Grammer school students and have the same quality. I think it would be far better to reform comprehensives, plus then we wouldn't have to pay tax money to schools that don't teach all the students.

Well, if there was - say - only one grammar school in the entire country it would have the most fantastically high standards because it could select from such an enormous pool of applicants.

Therefore, one must be sensible - a grammar school in every town, which is the situation that existed years ago, would produce a great many good schools.

This would also give far greater access to the grammars, making them at least theoretically available for everyone.

I don't see a problem with making grammars part of an integrated system in which - say - an up-to-date version of a secondary modern would not necessarily be considered inferior in quality.

If taxation is an issue then it could be ensured that the new secondary mods would have as much money spent on them as the grammars, so they would have a decent amount of funding to offer more vocational subjects.

Then this second tier of education would not simply be considered 'inferior' - only different in kind.

I don't believe comprehensives can be reformed. Their inability to select pupils is a handicap.

They work best in good areas where the presence of a good school ensures high house prices in that area - hence a form of selection by mortgage.

This was hardly the thinking behind the comprehensive experiment when it was introduced years ago.

British-Conservatism · 11-10-2008, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by London Orbital

Yes - the grammar school I went to improved a lot when it went comprehensive.

Reasons: it moved to a better area and it began to have girls in it.
So there are other factors.

Well, if there was - say - only one grammar school in the entire country it would have the most fantastically high standards because it could select from such an enormous pool of applicants.

Therefore, one must be sensible - a grammar school in every town, which is the situation that existed years ago, would produce a great many good schools.

This would also give far greater access to the grammars, making them at least theoretically available for everyone.

I don't see a problem with making grammars part of an integrated system in which - say - an up-to-date version of a secondary modern would not necessarily be considered inferior in quality.

If taxation is an issue then it could be ensured that the new secondary mods would have as much money spent on them as the grammars, so they would have a decent amount of funding to offer more vocational subjects.

Then this second tier of education would not simply be considered 'inferior' - only different in kind.

I don't believe comprehensives can be reformed. Their inability to select pupils is a handicap.

They work best in good areas where the presence of a good school ensures high house prices in that area - hence a form of selection by mortgage.

This was hardly the thinking behind the comprehensive experiment when it was introduced years ago.

Comprensive schools worked well at first but Demographic change and lack of discipline have changed that.
Grammar schools are just a guilt free apartheid.

BonnieDundee · 12-10-2008, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Well, if there was - say - only one grammar school in the entire country it would have the most fantastically high standards because it could select from such an enormous pool of applicants.

Therefore, one must be sensible - a grammar school in every town, which is the situation that existed years ago, would produce a great many good schools.

This would also give far greater access to the grammars, making them at least theoretically available for everyone.

The thing is they are only good schools because they pick the best students not for any other reason. It is like having two football teams, one with millions to spend on the best players and one with very little money and amateur players. The former will obviously be better because it can pick the best players.

Also with the best students being taken by Grammer schools comprehensives will decline.

Quote:

I don't see a problem with making grammars part of an integrated system in which - say - an up-to-date version of a secondary modern would not necessarily be considered inferior in quality.

Then this second tier of education would not simply be considered 'inferior' - only different in kind.

I don't believe comprehensives can be reformed. Their inability to select pupils is a handicap.

They work best in good areas where the presence of a good school ensures high house prices in that area - hence a form of selection by mortgage.

This was hardly the thinking behind the comprehensive experiment when it was introduced years ago.

But if they can select students then it makes talking of good schools far less meaningful. A good school is one who can take all kinds of students and get good results(sort of, I'm not a great fan or traditional schooling.).

London Orbital · 13-10-2008, 01:07 AM

Quote:

The thing is they are only good schools because they pick the best students not for any other reason. It is like having two football teams, one with millions to spend on the best players and one with very little money and amateur players. The former will obviously be better because it can pick the best players.

They pick the most academically able students - yes - who then get a better chance of exam success than they would at some sink estate comprehensive.

Grammar schools need not necessarily consume greater funds.

Revived technical schools or secondary moderns with an emphasis on vocational subjects could have just as much invested in them, if not more.

Quote:

Also with the best students being taken by Grammer schools comprehensives will decline.

If there are individual comprehensives in good areas which also happen to be good schools then these should be supported.

The priority though would be to re-establish grammar schools once again in not-so-good areas in order to give bright working class children a better chance than they have now and improve levels of social mobility.

Quote:

But if they can select students then it makes talking of good schools far less meaningful. A good school is one who can take all kinds of students and get good results(sort of, I'm not a great fan or traditional schooling.).

I disagree that a good school is one that can take all kinds of students and get good results. In practice local comps are forced to take all kinds of students and that is why they often get poor results.

London Orbital · 13-10-2008, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

Grammar schools are just a guilt free apartheid.

I completely fail to see how a meritocratic system based on ability can be compared to state-imposed racial segregation.

Anyone can get to a grammar school if they pass the exams, whilst apartheid divides people at birth.

In fact, because comprehensives work well in wealthy areas and badly in poorer areas, the comprehensive system is far closer to a system of apartheid.

Priviliged children who are born into well-off families are much more likely attend good comprehensives - if they don't go private, of course.

Whereas children who are the benighted spawn of feckless single mothers living on benefits will undoubtedly attend the poorly-performing comprehensives in bad areas.

Comprehensive education is just selection by mortgage.

Therefore it closer to a system of apartheid which divides people at birth, as people - by and large - do not alter their fortunes very much.

Many studies have shown that children born in the 1950s subsequently enjoyed far greater levels of social mobility than those born in the 1970s.

The reason is that those born in the 1950s benefited from attending grammar schools, which were far less available to the generation born in the 1970s.

It is typical of the Labour party that first introduced the comprehensive system that it almost never seems to promote genuine aspiration in the working classes.

Instead it prefers to keep its client state in exactly the form it is - in supposedly grateful servility.

11-10-2008, 02:39 AM	#1 (permalink)
London Orbital Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: East End of London Posts: 504	State education no longer works, except for grammar schools - and there aren't enough Police called as parents cause havoc at grammar school exam Tim Ross, Education Correspondent 10.10.08 Police called as parents cause havoc at grammar school exam \| News Police had to be called in to prevent "havoc" breaking out when parents swamped the entrance exam for a London grammar school. Almost 1,500 pupils were competing for 126 places at Wallington County Grammar School in Sutton, threatening to create chaos. Elsewhere, police are said to have been called on to help chaperone thousands of parents from railway stations on the day of the exams. The credit crunch is forcing parents to attempt to save money on private school fees by sending their children to state grammars, according to experts. But soaring demand has seen schools overwhelmed on 11-plus day. Tina Marden, admissions secretary at Wallington, which has 880 pupils, said: "We had to have the police to control parking. We are on a red route and, if we didn't, people would cause havoc. The credit crunch does seem like an obvious thing that is affecting choices for parents at the moment." Fewer parents than usual withdrew their children from the school to send them private last year, she said. There are at least 10 applicants for every place at the most highly rated grammars. Competition appears to have intensified during the credit crunch. According to the Good Schools Guide, applications at almost one in five private schools have fallen by 10 per cent in four years, with the main winners being the selective grammar schools. Last year at Wallington, 98 per cent of pupils scored at least five A*-C grades at GCSE including English and maths. Robert McCartney QC, chairman of the National Grammar Schools Association, said applications across the country had reached record levels this year amid soaring demand from "aspirational parents". "One of the effects of the credit crunch is that those people who were just able to make the fees are no longer able to do so," he said. "Because of the poor state of the comprehensive system they are desperate to get their children into grammar schools." A Metropolitan Police spokesman confirmed that safer neighbourhood teams attended last month's exams at Wallington.

11-10-2008, 02:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
BonnieDundee Uber Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Between Mallaig and Cornwall. Posts: 2,809	Grammar schools are good because they take the best pupils. If they took in more they wouldn't be as good. Personally I wouldn't want to pay bloody taxes for them if my kids didn't get in. __________________ "It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state." -Bruce Schneier How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and pss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.* Edward Abbey Leopold Kohr.

11-10-2008, 01:28 PM	#5 (permalink)
British-Conservatism Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,313	There is an Elephant in the room here. Why do all these parents really choose this school? __________________ http://conservativedemocraticalliance.blogspot.com/

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