Idea's on Taxation (one for the Libertarians)

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 02:16 PM

This is by a Conservative associate of mine on the abolition of nearly all taxes except property tax.
Give me your thoughts on this.
Let me know what you all think on this.

2007/08 See: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pfd_260908.xls
Income tax gross of tax credits: £151.9bn
Minus tax credits of £4.7bn
Capital gains tax: £5.3bn
Inheritance tax: £3.9bn
National insurance: £100.4bn
Council tax: £23.3bn

Total: £280.1bn

So you could abolish income tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, national insurance and council tax by: making everyone pay a property tax. The total value of residential property in the UK is £5.8trn (see http://www.aboutproperty.co.uk/news/house-...illion-$1227142.htm), ie £5,800bn. So a property tax set at 4.83% of property value (paid by all householders whether homeowners or not) would bring in the same amount of money into the Treasury as all these taxes combined and save money on collection costs, and restore your financial privacy.

Someone who lived in a house valued in mid-2008 at £200K would pay £9660 in total tax. You would have to set the right slightly higher than 4.83% if you were going to give relief to pensioners. This is why I think 6% is a more realistic figure. The unemployed could be required to live in Band A properties as a condition of getting benefits at all. Onlyh those whose property is worth more than 5 times their annual salary would be worse off (and in practice they could increase their wealth more quickly via the lack of capital gains tax).

Smidgey · 09-10-2008, 02:19 PM

Hmm, a question concerning students. How could they afford to live except with their parents?

I'd rather support reducing taxes than lumping all the taxes together.

John Connor · 09-10-2008, 02:26 PM

No to the OP. This benefits those who prefer to **** their income up the wall and live in a small house rather than those who prefer to stay at home and put their money into owning a larger house. Plus the tw@ts from the council would be snooping around your house every five minutes to see if you've installed nicer carpets and thus pushed the value up some.

I suggest the abolition of all taxation except a sales tax. As in the yanks' "Fair Tax" thinking. It'd encourage saving. It'd be more private. It'd be fairer.
Any shortfall could be made up by not buying everyone in Africa a fsking Mercedes.

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Hmm, a question concerning students. How could they afford to live except with their parents?

I'd rather support reducing taxes than lumping all the taxes together.

Well I asked the similar question on the unemployed and pensioners.
His answer was this -

unemployed: there should be no 3 way split of benefits into "unemployment benefit" plus "council tax benefit" plus "housing benefit". The way it currently works is that you can live in quite a plush place and get housing benefit to pay for it, and they will also pay your council tax beneift even if you are not in a band A property...

There should be one sum of money for the unemployed including enough money to pay for a cheap place to rent (a bedsit for a single person, a cheap flat for a family) and enough money to cover the Band A council tax. Then it is up to you - if you choose to live in a more expensive house in a more expensive area, your benefits will simply not go far. So the unemployed would be forced to move to cheaper areas. The whole bureaucracy involved with administering housing benefit would join the dole queues themselves!

Pensioners: there could simply be one standard sum across the country paid in council tax by pensioners, so they wouldn't have to sell up and move out of their large properties if they couldn't afford to pay 6% of their property value.

We could slash the size of the state just by closing down finance departments in every council in the land!

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Hmm, a question concerning students. How could they afford to live except with their parents?

I'd rather support reducing taxes than lumping all the taxes together.

This is a Libertarian idea taken mainly from Sean Gabbs book.

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 02:35 PM

Let me just add im totally opposed to all property tax so I don’t back this idea at all.

John Connor · 09-10-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

So the unemployed would be forced to move to cheaper areas.

...cheaper areas being cheaper because there aren't any good jobs there.

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Connor

...cheaper areas being cheaper because there aren't any good jobs there.

Much like the points I made against his idea.

Smidgey · 09-10-2008, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

Well I asked the similar question on the unemployed and pensioners.
His answer was this -

unemployed: there should be no 3 way split of benefits into "unemployment benefit" plus "council tax benefit" plus "housing benefit". The way it currently works is that you can live in quite a plush place and get housing benefit to pay for it, and they will also pay your council tax beneift even if you are not in a band A property...

There should be one sum of money for the unemployed including enough money to pay for a cheap place to rent (a bedsit for a single person, a cheap flat for a family) and enough money to cover the Band A council tax. Then it is up to you - if you choose to live in a more expensive house in a more expensive area, your benefits will simply not go far. So the unemployed would be forced to move to cheaper areas. The whole bureaucracy involved with administering housing benefit would join the dole queues themselves!

Pensioners: there could simply be one standard sum across the country paid in council tax by pensioners, so they wouldn't have to sell up and move out of their large properties if they couldn't afford to pay 6% of their property value.

We could slash the size of the state just by closing down finance departments in every council in the land!

Firstly, like you, I don't actually support any property taxes (that includes income tax, since your income is your property, although I would rather get rid of taxes like council tax first since they are far more evil because they are rarely based upon ability to pay). I find myself agreeing with John Conner and his sales tax on this one.

Secondly, concerning his response - I don't like the idea of continuing unemployment benefit - especially since this seems to imply that a centralised bureaucracy hands out the benefit and I can see that being a complete mess.

Thirdly, There are actually very few properties that can be considered 'cheap' these days. Take my city, Edinburgh, the vast majority of student accomodation is in the city center (where the university is) and most flats cost at least £200,000. Three things could happen here, either students become even more indebted paying 10 grand a year council tax (no way are their land lords going to pay it, the council tax is always passed onto the tenant), they move out of the city center and then cause even more congestion with 30,000 students commuting into the city every day or they just end up staying within university accomodation for their whole period of study or end up not even going in the first place. Universities do not have that much space to accomodate students past their first year, let alone for four years so would have to spend a lot of their money on building accomodation or they will lose students and not receive as much funding. Say what you want about the typical left-wing student or lecturer, but universities are important for research and I would prefer it if British universities could get funding similar to American ones to make us far more attractive for research and business, especially when compared to the rest of Europe.

I can actually think of many more scenarios in such a situation concerning students and universities along and that is ignoring all the problems it creates for pensioners, the unemployed and first time buyers who have had their income wiped out by mortgages.

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Firstly, like you, I don't actually support any property taxes (that includes income tax, since your income is your property, although I would rather get rid of taxes like council tax first since they are far more evil because they are rarely based upon ability to pay). I find myself agreeing with John Conner and his sales tax on this one.

Secondly, concerning his response - I don't like the idea of continuing unemployment benefit - especially since this seems to imply that a centralised bureaucracy hands out the benefit and I can see that being a complete mess.

Thirdly, There are actually very few properties that can be considered 'cheap' these days. Take my city, Edinburgh, the vast majority of student accomodation is in the city center (where the university is) and most flats cost at least £200,000. Three things could happen here, either students become even more indebted paying 10 grand a year council tax (no way are their land lords going to pay it, the council tax is always passed onto the tenant), they move out of the city center and then cause even more congestion with 30,000 students commuting into the city every day or they just end up staying within university accomodation for their whole period of study or end up not even going in the first place. Universities do not have that much space to accomodate students past their first year, let alone for four years so would have to spend a lot of their money on building accomodation or they will lose students and not receive as much funding. Say what you want about the typical left-wing student or lecturer, but universities are important for research and I would prefer it if British universities could get funding similar to American ones to make us far more attractive for research and business, especially when compared to the rest of Europe.

I can actually think of many more scenarios in such a situation concerning students and universities along and that is ignoring all the problems it creates for pensioners, the unemployed and first time buyers who have had their income wiped out by mortgages.

I will put your points to the man who's idea it was.

Im no fan of Sales tax or VAT I would lack both abolished.
They stop entrepreneurs getting on in life.

09-10-2008, 02:16 PM	#1 (permalink)
British-Conservatism Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,313	Idea's on Taxation (one for the Libertarians) This is by a Conservative associate of mine on the abolition of nearly all taxes except property tax. Give me your thoughts on this. Let me know what you all think on this. 2007/08 See: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pfd_260908.xls Income tax gross of tax credits: £151.9bn Minus tax credits of £4.7bn Capital gains tax: £5.3bn Inheritance tax: £3.9bn National insurance: £100.4bn Council tax: £23.3bn Total: £280.1bn So you could abolish income tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, national insurance and council tax by: making everyone pay a property tax. The total value of residential property in the UK is £5.8trn (see http://www.aboutproperty.co.uk/news/house-...illion-$1227142.htm), ie £5,800bn. So a property tax set at 4.83% of property value (paid by all householders whether homeowners or not) would bring in the same amount of money into the Treasury as all these taxes combined and save money on collection costs, and restore your financial privacy. Someone who lived in a house valued in mid-2008 at £200K would pay £9660 in total tax. You would have to set the right slightly higher than 4.83% if you were going to give relief to pensioners. This is why I think 6% is a more realistic figure. The unemployed could be required to live in Band A properties as a condition of getting benefits at all. Onlyh those whose property is worth more than 5 times their annual salary would be worse off (and in practice they could increase their wealth more quickly via the lack of capital gains tax). __________________ http://conservativedemocraticalliance.blogspot.com/

09-10-2008, 02:19 PM	#2 (permalink)
Smidgey Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 2,210 Party: Libertarian Party	Hmm, a question concerning students. How could they afford to live except with their parents? I'd rather support reducing taxes than lumping all the taxes together. __________________ How vain is man, who boasts in fight the valour of gigantic might! -Georg Friedrich Händel

09-10-2008, 02:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
John Connor Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Hard Working Families' Socialist Republic of Untied Kingdomistan Posts: 1,019 Party: None	No to the OP. This benefits those who prefer to **** their income up the wall and live in a small house rather than those who prefer to stay at home and put their money into owning a larger house. Plus the tw@ts from the council would be snooping around your house every five minutes to see if you've installed nicer carpets and thus pushed the value up some. I suggest the abolition of all taxation except a sales tax. As in the yanks' "Fair Tax" thinking. It'd encourage saving. It'd be more private. It'd be fairer. Any shortfall could be made up by not buying everyone in Africa a fsking Mercedes. __________________ There are three types of people in this world: Libertarians, fascists and those who haven't been paying attention. Users on ignore list: Akria, Besoeker, Clippo, david H, Ian C.

09-10-2008, 02:35 PM	#6 (permalink)
British-Conservatism Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,313	Let me just add im totally opposed to all property tax so I don’t back this idea at all. __________________ http://conservativedemocraticalliance.blogspot.com/

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