John Connor

Wiki:

It's payable on the land's potential for income, not the actual income.

Here's some more:

So, will my empty fields be safe? No.

I mean, fsking hell, the mode of taxation is even implied in the name: Land Value Tax.
That's a tax on the value of the land, regardless of improvements. It isn't called Land Income Tax.


Everyone here has realised you're a commie, Dundee. About time you gave up the charade and just admitted it.

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Smidgey

But that doesn't provide any protection against the tenant footing the bill. In the current system, the owner does not pass on the council tax in the rent - the council tax is paid by the tenant straight to the government, thereby cutting out the middleman and reducing the cost of the actual rent itself - especially in the case of students who pay no council tax anyway. If the council tax was legally enforced upon the owner of the property and not the occupier, then that cost would be passed onto the tenant and in the case of students there would be no way to avoid the tax and in the case of pensioners (who I believe should at the very least be able to get the same deal that students do concerning council tax) the same thing would happen.

I might be being completely obtuse, but I don't see any mechanism you have presented to me to stop the above scenario from happening.

I also though up another problem whilst I was offline - what about large organisations that require a lot of space, especially in central areas. Take hospitals, universities or schools as examples. These buildings require a lot of space - especially hospitals and universities and I would be loathe to taxing them (even if they were private companies, charities or any other such financial arrangement, which I believe they should be) more for the use of their land which many a developer would love to turn into prime real estate.

This second issue could be a misunderstanding on my part, so I'm sure you will put me right.

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BonnieDundee

I didn't realise that we all have to take order from wikipedia. It couldn't be collected in a myriad of ways. I don't imagine it being collected in that way ot wish to it to.


Smidgey do you think I'm a communist? We've all realised you can't argue and so must pelt others with meaningless insults and labels John, we had this debate before you ran away before.

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BonnieDundee

Well firstly let's not forget it gets paid anyway, just to private landlords. But basically it doesn't get passed on because the supply of land is not changed and demand is reduced and considering the the most rent possible is close to being paid for any property at any given time it cannot be passed on.

To quote some key classical and modern economists.

Why a landlord can not just pass on the cost of LVT to the renter
by Bryan Kavanagh

If, as claimed by vested interests, the land value tax can be passed on, why do not these representatives of special privilege pass the measure and allow their friends to pass it on? The reason is they know that the land values tax cannot be transferred.

- EJ Craigie, former South Australian politician, circa 1958.

A. THE CLASSICISTS:

1 Though the landlord is in all cases the real contributor, the tax is commonly advanced by the tenants, to whom the landlord is obliged to allow it in payment of the rent.

- Adam Smith
"Wealth of Nations" Book 5, Ch 2

2 A tax on rent falls wholly on the landlord. There are no means by which he can shift the burden upon anyone else... A tax on rent, therefore, has no effect other than the obvious one. It merely takes so much from the landlord and transfers it to the State.

- John Stuart Mill (1806-1873)
"Principles of Political Economy" Book 5, Ch 3, Sect 2

3 The power of transferring a tax from the person who actually pays it to some other person varies with the object taxed. A tax on rents cannot be transferred. A tax on commodities is always transferred to the consumer.

- Professor James E Thorold Rogers
"Political Economy" 2nd ed Ch 21, p 285

4 A tax levied in proportion to the rent of land, and varying with every variation of rents... will fall wholly on the landlords.

- Walker's "Political Economy", p 413

5 The incidence of the ground tax, in other words, is on the landlord. He has no means of shifting it; for, if the tax were to be suddenly abolished, he would nevertheless be able to extort the same rent, since the ground rent is fixed solely by the demand of the occupiers. The tax simply diminishes his profits.

- ERA Seligman
"Incidence of Taxation" pp 244-245

6 A tax on rent would affect rent only: it would fall only on landlords and could not be shifted. The landlord could not raise the rent, because he would have unaltered the difference between the produce obtained from the least productive land in cultivation and that obtained from land of every other quality.

- David Ricardo
"Principles of Political Economy and Taxation" Ch 10, Sect 62

7 The way taxes raise prices is by increasing the cost of production and checking supply. But land is not a thing of human production, and taxes upon rent cannot check supply. Therefore, though a tax upon rent compels owners to pay more, it gives them no power to obtain more for the use of their land, as it in no way tends to reduce the supply of land. On the contrary, by compelling those who hold land for speculation to sell or let for what they can get, a tax on land values tends to increase the competition between owners, and thus to reduce the price of land.

- Henry George
P&P Book 8, Ch 3

B. MODERN ECONOMISTS:

1 Pure land rent is in the nature of a "surplus" which can be taxed without affecting production incentives.

- Paul A Samuelson, Hancock & Wallace,
"Economics - An Introductory Analysis"
(Australian Edition) Ch 28 p 595

2 .... the complete inelasticity of the supply of land means that a tax on land rent has no effect on price or output and therefore does not alter resource allocation...This outcome is in contrast to property taxes on buildings..

- Jackson & McConnell,
"Economics" (2nd Aust Ed pp 540/541)

3 The (land) tax cannot be passed on to consumers... The failure of the single tax idea does not change the fact that a large increment of value does accrue to the owners of land, particularly in or near urban areas, due to the growth of the economy, without the landlord having to contribute any productive factor services in order to earn it.

- Richard G Lipsey,
"An Introduction to Positive Economics" (3rd ed.)

4 Aside from its compelling appeal to the public's sense of justice, a single tax on land has another advantage over most other forms of taxation - it is neutral in its effects on production incentives and resource allocation.

- Waud, Hocking, Maxwell & Bonnici,
"Economics" (Australian Edition)

And read this is explained here by several key thinkers. Please read it, I have a feeling view people really read links.

Wealth and Want theme: A Tax on Land Value is Not Passed On to the Tenant

And remember the LVT is based on a Ricardian idea of rent which is the most satisfactory around(the neoclassicalists don't really have one, they just treat land as capital because otherwise their theories would fall apart.).


No, no, it is a very valid question.

Well, despite what Wikipedia might say, there are many ways the tax could be collected. It could be collected only on income from the land ie rent or sales and hence would not effect these properties or it could be collected on all land except for exemptions and these could be exempted. There are many possibilities.

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John Connor

Well, let's put wiki aside and take a quote which you've just used:

There ya go. Out of the horse's mouth - the LVT compels those with idle land to make use of it. I wonder how it compels this use? Surely, if it was applied only on the income from the land, there'd be no such compulsion to use. Nope, the compulsion to use comes from the fact that it's a tax on the land value, regardless of the land's income.

So, a sales tax then. We could call it a "land value tax" if that's what gives you a boner, Dundee, but it'd still be a fsking sales tax.

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BonnieDundee

Well that quote is about those who hold land for speculation but it isn't particularly important. We can vary how the tax is collected, there is no iron law in the matter. Are you suggesting it has to be applied that way you are criticising?

Actually land value tax is already not too accurate because it isn't a tax on the value of land but value of site rent and ground rent. It is a collection of site rent and ground rent and I suggest it either be collected only when land is sold or rented or it be collected on all properties but the land of individuals and businesses not being rented out or sold be exempted, at least to a certain size as well as organisations like Smidgey suggested. It would have to be settled locally.

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How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and p*ss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.
Edward Abbey

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British-Conservatism

The ownership of land and property is one of the greatest ideals in life to tax it is an outrage.

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BonnieDundee

I don't disagree that it is important. This tax encourages it among the many because the few cannot speculate and monopolise it with this tax.

It is a distributist tax, which is the economic ideology of the BNP I believe. Hence it support among key modern distributists like John Medialle(the tax that is.).

The Distributist Review
The ChesterBelloc Mandate
Home Page

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"It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state."
-Bruce Schneier

How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and p*ss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.
Edward Abbey

Leopold Kohr.

BonnieDundee

The Taiwanese gov't has long been into the LVT and it grants these exemptions apparently.

Real Property Taxes: Land Value Tax

Land value tax is levied at either the regular progressive rates or the special rates. Regular progressive rates is from 1% to 5.5%. Special privileged tax are applicable to land used for the following purposes:

Purpose
Special
Privileged
tax rate
Remarks

Land for self-use residence 0.2%
The property is rated at no more than 300 square meters within an urban area, no more
than 700 square meters within a rural area.

Land reserved for public facilities 0.6% If the land is for self-use during reservation period, the tax rate shall be 0.2%.

Land for industrial use, mining, private parks, zoos, gas stations, parking lots and so on 1.0%

Land value tax may be exempted or reduced in any one of the following situations:

1. Land reserved for public facilities for urban planning purposes and has not been used during the reservation period, and has been segregated from land being used, are fully exempted from land value tax.

2. Land exclusively used for private experimental facilities in farming, forestry, fishery, livestock farming, industrial use, or mining, which has been duly registered with and approved by the competent authority, and has been actually engaging in experimental activities for more than 5 years, shall be entitled to a reduction of 50%.

3. Land base used for railroads and highways operated privately, or railroads and highways for exclusive use, shall have full exemption if their construction have been approved by the competent authority, and if they are regularly open for public use including passenger and cargo transportation.

4. Land used for agricultural irrigation systems by businesses whose establishment have been approved by the competent authority to collect, store or drain water shall have full exemption; however, land used for offices and work stations thereof shall have a 50% reduction.

5. Land provided without compensation for the use of governmental agencies or public schools, or military institutes, troops and schools, shall have full exemption for the period during usage.

6. Land used as passage ways or hallways for public passage with no construction improvement shall be exempted from land value tax; land with building improvements is subject to the reduction listed below:

7. A one-story addition may claim a 50% reduction.

8. A two-story addition, a one-third reduction.

9. A three-story addition, a one-fourth reduction.

10. A four-story or more addition, a one-fifth reduction

Note how normal dwellings only pay a very small rate. I'm not sure if it is of the ground rent or of the value of the property. It is probably the later but still very small at 0.2%. That would mean if it were worth a million pounds they'd only pay 2000 pounds a year. They could of course just as easily be completely exempted.


They also have something call the Land value Increment tax which is basically the way of doing it by just taxing income from land(although I'm not sure they do it for rent.)that I was talking about earlier.

Real Property Taxes: Land Value Increment Tax (LVIT)

Personally because the LVT is both a tax and social justice instrument I'd probably have it on both income and the ground rent on non-income producing land whether it is used by a business or for residence thebeyond quite a large amount, larger than the exemptions granted to residences in Taiwan. And obviously exempt things like you were talking about Smidgey.

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"It is poor civic hygiene to install technologies that could someday facilitate a police state."
-Bruce Schneier

How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your TV; build your own cabin and p*ss off front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it.
Edward Abbey

Leopold Kohr.

Besoeker

And the CAP single payment scheme is an insane waste of money.