Was I wrong?

Leo · 08-10-2008, 09:36 AM

I was up at my aunt's place in the mountains for the weekend, and she had guests from the city staying. At dinner there was this old guy who was saying we should have nuked the Iraqis cos they're all savages anyway.

I said that I didn't agree, and he said I was not old enough to know what I was talking about, so I should keep my opinions to myself.

I then said that Mesopotamia was the cradle of civilisation and the Code of Hammurabi was one of the earliest attempts at codifying laws, and that was the heritage of the Iraqis, so he couldn't call them savages.

He said he could call them anything he damn well liked, and they were only 'wogs' anyway and would never amount to anything.

I then sort of called him a bigot, and he called me an insolent pup, and then my aunt ordered both me and my cousin (who was backing me up) to leave the table and we had to have our pudding in his room.

So was I wrong to correct him? Like it was a bit scary cos he went all red in the face and was banging the table and shouting at me. I mean if a grown up says something that is obviously wrong, do you have to agree?

Aardvark · 08-10-2008, 10:16 AM

No, but if you're a guest at someone's table you shouldn't call another guest a bigot even if he is. Sometimes you have to listen to a lot of drivel from friends and relations and it is better to bite your tongue than cause unnecessary offence. There are polite ways of making your point. The gentleman concerned has not learnt good manners and should not have expressed himself in such terms when there were people who disagreed with him. The example he sets to you is not one to follow and he no doubt lowered himself in your eyes. I feel for your aunt.

Keyser Soze · 08-10-2008, 10:33 AM

Hey,keep your hands to yourself Aardvark,his Aunts married anyway.

Wowbanger TIP · 08-10-2008, 10:39 AM

Dropping nuclear weapons on Iraq would be a pointless expense, the miserable, flat, greasy, benighted shithole already looks like it has been nuked. Iraq is the only place on Earth where people refer to the Apocalypse in the past tense. Biological weapons would be more effective anyway.

Much more cost effective to secure the oil fields on the Kuwait border and Northern town of Kirkut and just let them kill each other for nothing. Why we didn't just do that in the first place is beyond me. Trying to help Arabs is like trying to feed a rabid dog, dangerous and stupid.

The time is rapidly approaching when we either take the Middle East's oil by force or the threat of it or accept the collapse of our civilization. It would have been a damn sight better had we done this ten years ago but to expect rational decisive action from our senile elite and society is more than can be dreamed of.

komerad · 08-10-2008, 10:53 AM

I think Aardvark summed up the situation very well!!
You were all guests of your aunt & no doubt the confrontation at the dinner-table would have spoiled the atmosphere.
Sometimes, for the benefit of others, it is best to say nothing, smile & think to yourself " How did this f***ing idiot get invited?)

Leo · 08-10-2008, 02:02 PM

Well, I didn't actually say he was a bigot, but I said that was a very bigoted view. I was trying to show respect for his age (he is like 60 or 70 or something) but also to make my point that just cos people are not rich, does not make them savages. Like every society is different, and we are not better than everyone else, just cos we had this big empire that exploited most of the world. It does not give us the right to go around calling people 'wogs' and stuff.

Actually my aunt told me later that she agreed with my view, but she sent me to my room cos I was impolite to this man who is older than my grandad.

But really my question is a serious one. Should I not stand up for people who are being treated unfairly, even if just in conversation? Like what if he said that it was a pity Hitler didn't finish off all the Jews? Should I just say nothing out of politeness, and respect for his years?

Besoeker · 08-10-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo

I was up at my aunt's place in the mountains for the weekend, and she had guests from the city staying. At dinner there was this old guy who was saying we should have nuked the Iraqis cos they're all savages anyway.

I said that I didn't agree, and he said I was not old enough to know what I was talking about, so I should keep my opinions to myself.

I then said that Mesopotamia was the cradle of civilisation and the Code of Hammurabi was one of the earliest attempts at codifying laws, and that was the heritage of the Iraqis, so he couldn't call them savages.

He said he could call them anything he damn well liked, and they were only 'wogs' anyway and would never amount to anything.

I then sort of called him a bigot, and he called me an insolent pup, and then my aunt ordered both me and my cousin (who was backing me up) to leave the table and we had to have our pudding in his room.

So was I wrong to correct him? Like it was a bit scary cos he went all red in the face and was banging the table and shouting at me. I mean if a grown up says something that is obviously wrong, do you have to agree?

Difficult.
I think the only positive to take away is an understanding of when further discussion is fruitless.
From what you have said, the old guy held intransigent views and was not prepared to consider any fact or opinion contrary to that.
It's difficult to argue with willful ignorance.

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Besoeker

Difficult.
I think the only positive to take away is an understanding of when further discussion is fruitless.
From what you have said, the old guy held intransigent views and was not prepared to consider any fact or opinion contrary to that.
It's difficult to argue with willful ignorance.

Of course im sure the pair of you know loads of Iraqis dont you?

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wowbanger TIP

Dropping nuclear weapons on Iraq would be a pointless expense, the miserable, flat, greasy, benighted shithole already looks like it has been nuked. Iraq is the only place on Earth where people refer to the Apocalypse in the past tense. Biological weapons would be more effective anyway.

Much more cost effective to secure the oil fields on the Kuwait border and Northern town of Kirkut and just let them kill each other for nothing. Why we didn't just do that in the first place is beyond me. Trying to help Arabs is like trying to feed a rabid dog, dangerous and stupid.

The time is rapidly approaching when we either take the Middle East's oil by force or the threat of it or accept the collapse of our civilization. It would have been a damn sight better had we done this ten years ago but to expect rational decisive action from our senile elite and society is more than can be dreamed of.

We dont need Middle Eastern Oil.
We just need to nationalise our Oil and then start pumping in the South Atlantic.
We need to bring back large use of Coal too.

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo

Well, I didn't actually say he was a bigot, but I said that was a very bigoted view. I was trying to show respect for his age (he is like 60 or 70 or something) but also to make my point that just cos people are not rich, does not make them savages. Like every society is different, and we are not better than everyone else, just cos we had this big empire that exploited most of the world. It does not give us the right to go around calling people 'wogs' and stuff.

Actually my aunt told me later that she agreed with my view, but she sent me to my room cos I was impolite to this man who is older than my grandad.

But really my question is a serious one. Should I not stand up for people who are being treated unfairly, even if just in conversation? Like what if he said that it was a pity Hitler didn't finish off all the Jews? Should I just say nothing out of politeness, and respect for his years?

You must remember you have been brought up in an education system and media environment that promotes effete Liberalism and racial equality hence your views are much different from the more natural views of this man.

08-10-2008, 09:36 AM	#1 (permalink)
Leo Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 83	Was I wrong? I was up at my aunt's place in the mountains for the weekend, and she had guests from the city staying. At dinner there was this old guy who was saying we should have nuked the Iraqis cos they're all savages anyway. I said that I didn't agree, and he said I was not old enough to know what I was talking about, so I should keep my opinions to myself. I then said that Mesopotamia was the cradle of civilisation and the Code of Hammurabi was one of the earliest attempts at codifying laws, and that was the heritage of the Iraqis, so he couldn't call them savages. He said he could call them anything he damn well liked, and they were only 'wogs' anyway and would never amount to anything. I then sort of called him a bigot, and he called me an insolent pup, and then my aunt ordered both me and my cousin (who was backing me up) to leave the table and we had to have our pudding in his room. So was I wrong to correct him? Like it was a bit scary cos he went all red in the face and was banging the table and shouting at me. I mean if a grown up says something that is obviously wrong, do you *have* to agree?

08-10-2008, 10:16 AM	#2 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,973	No, but if you're a guest at someone's table you shouldn't call another guest a bigot even if he is. Sometimes you have to listen to a lot of drivel from friends and relations and it is better to bite your tongue than cause unnecessary offence. There are polite ways of making your point. The gentleman concerned has not learnt good manners and should not have expressed himself in such terms when there were people who disagreed with him. The example he sets to you is not one to follow and he no doubt lowered himself in your eyes. I feel for your aunt. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

08-10-2008, 10:39 AM	#4 (permalink)
Wowbanger TIP Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,640	Dropping nuclear weapons on Iraq would be a pointless expense, the miserable, flat, greasy, benighted shithole already looks like it has been nuked. Iraq is the only place on Earth where people refer to the Apocalypse in the past tense. Biological weapons would be more effective anyway. Much more cost effective to secure the oil fields on the Kuwait border and Northern town of Kirkut and just let them kill each other for nothing. Why we didn't just do that in the first place is beyond me. Trying to help Arabs is like trying to feed a rabid dog, dangerous and stupid. The time is rapidly approaching when we either take the Middle East's oil by force or the threat of it or accept the collapse of our civilization. It would have been a damn sight better had we done this ten years ago but to expect rational decisive action from our senile elite and society is more than can be dreamed of. __________________ The only ones left with any confidence at all are the New Dumb. It is the beginning of the end of our world as we knew it. Doom is the operative ethic. H S Thompson Kingdom of Fear: Loathsome Secrets of a Star-crossed Child in the Final Days of the American Century (2004)

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08-10-2008, 10:33 AM	#3 (permalink)
Keyser Soze Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 504 Party: Other	Hey,keep your hands to yourself Aardvark,his Aunts married anyway.

08-10-2008, 10:53 AM	#5 (permalink)
komerad Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cardiff. S.Wales Posts: 611	I think Aardvark summed up the situation very well!! You were all guests of your aunt & no doubt the confrontation at the dinner-table would have spoiled the atmosphere. Sometimes, for the benefit of others, it is best to say nothing, smile & think to yourself " How did this f***ing idiot get invited?)

08-10-2008, 02:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
Leo Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 83	Well, I didn't actually say he was a bigot, but I said that was a very bigoted view. I was trying to show respect for his age (he is like 60 or 70 or something) but also to make my point that just cos people are not rich, does not make them savages. Like every society is different, and we are not better than everyone else, just cos we had this big empire that exploited most of the world. It does not give us the right to go around calling people 'wogs' and stuff. Actually my aunt told me later that she agreed with my view, but she sent me to my room cos I was impolite to this man who is older than my grandad. But really my question is a serious one. Should I not stand up for people who are being treated unfairly, even if just in conversation? Like what if he said that it was a pity Hitler didn't finish off all the Jews? Should I just say nothing out of politeness, and respect for his years?