Was I wrong?

Keyser Soze · 09-10-2008, 01:45 PM

I would think that the old guy was speaking in general to those present at the table and that Leo should have listened quietly until he had finished speaking.Then asked them all if he could now give his imressions on what the old guy had said,thus opening up on what he thought of the old guys offering on the subject.
This way the debate may have continued amicably with Leo earning brownie points by the bucketfull,and the old guy scared to open his mouth again,except to shovel in more garbage which he would swallow,along with his tongue and a lot of his arrogance.

Well done Leo,dont just sit there and take it,wait your turn to respond vehemently.

SilverFalcon · 09-10-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whypatcondellisntfun

Holy Moly. Where did you come from, and why have I not seen you posting before? Some amazingly inspirational words.

I have always been here. I come from ancient lines and I'm not going to go away till my people are free and proud. It's my duty.

It's everyone's duty. What I can't understand is why they aren't doing their duty. It's as easy as falling off a log once you get the hang of it. It's not as though they haven't done it before. They have been doing it for glorious centuries. I just want to give some of them a wee kick up the jacksie to make them want to start doing it again.

I like your avatar.

Wowbanger TIP · 09-10-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

Great put in there -

"What you believe should be based on what you know and not on what others have led you to believe."

Take a trip to the Middle East and see for yourself and you will understand the old fella.

When I was at school we all got brainwashed into thinking all the races and cultures of the earth where the same.
Travel, General experience and a study of Biology will quickly prove this nonsense wrong.

Same here. Anyone educated in the UK in the last forty years will have been taught that all apparent differences are a matter of prejudice.

I have spent a considerable amount of time in Iraq and am confident that the proposition "lets drop the bomb on the West" would command near universal support anywhere in the country. Fortunately they are not in a position to do so or we would not be having this debate.

Not that the Iraqis are alone in this, the population of our "ally" Kuwait would dance in the street if Paris, London or New York were incinerated, regardless of any problems this would cause them.

Leo · 09-10-2008, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFalcon

Leo, from an old rebel to a young one of the same breed, if you perceive evil, injustice or something that you feel is so intolerable to your sense of human decency that you cannot be in the same room with it, then get up and excuse yourself and leave. And there is nothing wrong with mentioning why you are doing so. It's called speaking out honestly.

There are ways of doing this and some of us have been powerfully vocal and made a scene before we swept from the room, but others have quietly informed those who are ignorant, bigoted, badly informed, brainwashed or just plain evil that we have no intention of sharing anything with anyone who cannot understand the protocol of human decency and who doesn't have even a smattering of intelligent compassion.

What you believe should be based on what you know and not on what others have led you to believe. On the other hand what you know shouldn't be influenced by what you have experienced piecemeal. There is always one nice friendly example of everything. What is important is justice and honour in dealing with everyone and that includes any friends and relatives, old farts, bigots, nasty frustrated cowards and the difficulties of generation gap influenced world views.

I agree with what you said and I am really impressed that you know the facts about the fertile crescent. Of course it was invaded by Arabs and has a heritage of Indo-European Persians and various others too, who make an estimation of who is who and what is what quite difficult. There are many layers in that place and now there is oil so anything that may have been is swept away in a greed for what is.

Keep that fair judgement you have. It's good and it will help you to find checks and balances in your own estimation of where you fit in in your own tempestuous heritage.

I will never be unable to speak out against injustice. I hope you will be the same, just remember that when the time comes for you to pay attention to your own folk you will need all that courage for yourself and your future. I hope you will be as good at defending it as you are at speaking up for others.

Good luck!

Hey thanks!

Actually, I don't know loads about the middle east, but we learned about Hammurabi and Mesopotamia in history, and I remembered some of that stuff.

I know now that I should have been more diplomatic in what I said, but I was getting a bit mad at his attitude. I really didn't want to be disrespectful and I tried to criticise his views and not him.

I sometimes post on a US forum (I'm the only Brit there) and I also defend my own society when I feel it is being unfairly criticised. But I don't defend everything just cos it's British. There's some people there who deliberately post things about England just to make me react, but I don't always. Like if it is bad, but true, why should I defend it? That would make me blindly nationalistic like some Americans.

And like I know Britain has a great history, but for me to be proud about that would be a bit freaky, cos I didn't have anything to do with my society's achievements. Like I've never done anything except go to school.

And I appreciate your advice about getting up and leaving the room if I am too freaked by what people are saying. I never thought of doing that, and I wish I had.

SilverFalcon · 09-10-2008, 04:03 PM

Leo, the old guy has an attitude that is of his generation and was necessary for the kind of conflict situations they all had to endure. It has been a habit to make up dreadful songs like "Oh, what a lovely war" and others in order to help people to fight them and often to instill an idea that war is glorious, but anyone who has read the poetry of Wilfred Owen (or the other war poets) can see that even stuff written at the age of about twenty-five can be powerfully evocative of the tragedy and waste that is human conflict on that scale. Read Dulce et Decorum Est and find the wham effect of the cynicism. War is terrible and always has been and should be avoided especially when it is for the benefit of bigshot elites. But sometimes you have to go and fight and so when you do honour is important and this is why soldiers are a special breed apart and usually only know what comradeship is by the relationship they have with one another on the battlefield where no civilians have been and where the prospect of death or glory is a matter of timing and luck and often of raw courage.

Even though you haven't (yet

) personally contributed to your heritage, those who have are part of you and what they either made or destroyed becomes a part of you too. You can pick and choose which aspects you will take with you on your life's journey. Choose well, these will be the most important maps you ever read of who you are, where you are and where you might go.

Have a good journey. You may, as you travel, become aware of the many ancestors travelling beside you in their various time lines, along the same roads. And as you go you may change and as you change you may evolve and grow and all this will be good if you always remember how to read the maps you were given when you were born by the people who gave you this life gift.

Wowbanger TIP · 09-10-2008, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

Of course I wouldnt want to nuke them not I doubt would the old bloke in question.
He was just expressing his view of their worth no doubt.

Why not? Uranium therapy had an entirely salutary effect on Japan.

The glassification of Mecca would have been an instructive lesson in the power of Allah Vs say that of HMS Vanguard. Unfortunately the converse is also true.

Weapons of Mass Destruction are useless if the enemy believes, rightly in this case, that you are too mentally weak to use them. This is compounded if the enemy believes that God is preventing you from using them.

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo

Hey thanks!

Actually, I don't know loads about the middle east, but we learned about Hammurabi and Mesopotamia in history, and I remembered some of that stuff.

I know now that I should have been more diplomatic in what I said, but I was getting a bit mad at his attitude. I really didn't want to be disrespectful and I tried to criticise his views and not him.

I sometimes post on a US forum (I'm the only Brit there) and I also defend my own society when I feel it is being unfairly criticised. But I don't defend everything just cos it's British. There's some people there who deliberately post things about England just to make me react, but I don't always. Like if it is bad, but true, why should I defend it? That would make me blindly nationalistic like some Americans.

And like I know Britain has a great history, but for me to be proud about that would be a bit freaky, cos I didn't have anything to do with my society's achievements. Like I've never done anything except go to school.

And I appreciate your advice about getting up and leaving the room if I am too freaked by what people are saying. I never thought of doing that, and I wish I had.

am I the only one who thinks the above is a very weird and disturbing attitude?

Aardvark · 09-10-2008, 06:24 PM

BC, Probably.

Leo is formulating ideas and opinions as he goes through life. He is sensible enough to ask for advice. Experience will change him. My life experiences have changed me and I am not the person I was at 17. I wish I'd listened to some of the advice I was given.

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

BC, Probably.

Leo is formulating ideas and opinions as he goes through life. He is sensible enough to ask for advice. Experience will change him. My life experiences have changed me and I am not the person I was at 17. I wish I'd listened to some of the advice I was given.

I understand the Left Wing brainwashing is now far worse than it's ever been at school but it was bad when I was there but I was still a Patriot.

Wowbanger TIP · 09-10-2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFalcon

Leo, the old guy has an attitude that is of his generation and was necessary for the kind of conflict situations they all had to endure. It has been a habit to make up dreadful songs like "Oh, what a lovely war" and others in order to help people to fight them and often to instill an idea that war is glorious, but anyone who has read the poetry of Wilfred Owen (or the other war poets) can see that even stuff written at the age of about twenty-five can be powerfully evocative of the tragedy and waste that is human conflict on that scale. Read Dulce et Decorum Est and find the wham effect of the cynicism. War is terrible and always has been and should be avoided especially when it is for the benefit of bigshot elites. But sometimes you have to go and fight and so when you do honour is important and this is why soldiers are a special breed apart and usually only know what comradeship is by the relationship they have with one another on the battlefield where no civilians have been and where the prospect of death or glory is a matter of timing and luck and often of raw courage.

Even though you haven't (yet

) personally contributed to your heritage, those who have are part of you and what they either made or destroyed becomes a part of you too. You can pick and choose which aspects you will take with you on your life's journey. Choose well, these will be the most important maps you ever read of who you are, where you are and where you might go.

Have a good journey. You may, as you travel, become aware of the many ancestors travelling beside you in their various time lines, along the same roads. And as you go you may change and as you change you may evolve and grow and all this will be good if you always remember how to read the maps you were given when you were born by the people who gave you this life gift.

"Oh what a lovely war" is a satirical tune not some sort of jingoistic blood curdling hymn. It is a conceit of today's society that their ancestors were all blood thirsty savages baying for slaughter as a form of entertainment. It helps us feel superior about our collective physical and mental weakness.

09-10-2008, 06:24 PM	#28 (permalink)
Aardvark Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oxonia Posts: 3,973	BC, Probably. Leo is formulating ideas and opinions as he goes through life. He is sensible enough to ask for advice. Experience will change him. My life experiences have changed me and I am not the person I was at 17. I wish I'd listened to some of the advice I was given. __________________ When in Woking do as the Wokes do. "I do not wish to form my opinions by thoughtlessly quoting others; I wish others to support their opinions by sensibly quoting me." Paul Wesson (Aardvark) 13th April 2008

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09-10-2008, 01:45 PM	#21 (permalink)
Keyser Soze Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 504 Party: Other	I would think that the old guy was speaking in general to those present at the table and that Leo should have listened quietly until he had finished speaking.Then asked them all if he could now give his imressions on what the old guy had said,thus opening up on what he thought of the old guys offering on the subject. This way the debate may have continued amicably with Leo earning brownie points by the bucketfull,and the old guy scared to open his mouth again,except to shovel in more garbage which he would swallow,along with his tongue and a lot of his arrogance. Well done Leo,dont just sit there and take it,wait your turn to respond vehemently.

09-10-2008, 04:03 PM	#25 (permalink)
SilverFalcon Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,047	Leo, the old guy has an attitude that is of his generation and was necessary for the kind of conflict situations they all had to endure. It has been a habit to make up dreadful songs like "Oh, what a lovely war" and others in order to help people to fight them and often to instill an idea that war is glorious, but anyone who has read the poetry of Wilfred Owen (or the other war poets) can see that even stuff written at the age of about twenty-five can be powerfully evocative of the tragedy and waste that is human conflict on that scale. Read Dulce et Decorum Est and find the wham effect of the cynicism. War is terrible and always has been and should be avoided especially when it is for the benefit of bigshot elites. But sometimes you have to go and fight and so when you do honour is important and this is why soldiers are a special breed apart and usually only know what comradeship is by the relationship they have with one another on the battlefield where no civilians have been and where the prospect of death or glory is a matter of timing and luck and often of raw courage. Even though you haven't (yet ) personally contributed to your heritage, those who have are part of you and what they either made or destroyed becomes a part of you too. You can pick and choose which aspects you will take with you on your life's journey. Choose well, these will be the most important maps you ever read of who you are, where you are and where you might go. Have a good journey. You may, as you travel, become aware of the many ancestors travelling beside you in their various time lines, along the same roads. And as you go you may change and as you change you may evolve and grow and all this will be good if you always remember how to read the maps you were given when you were born by the people who gave you this life gift.