Was I wrong?

Besoeker · 09-10-2008, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

Of course im sure the pair of you know loads of Iraqis dont you?

Well, I know a fair number - one in particular for his papers on the sub-synchronous converter cascade.
So, at least enough to know that they are not all savages.

whypatcondellisntfun · 09-10-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by British-Conservatism

You must remember you have been brought up in an education system and media environment that promotes effete Liberalism and racial equality hence your views are much different from the more natural views of this man.

I presume that you were brought up in a vacuum and can objectively assess and pass judgement upon individual situations without recall to prejudice or stereotype? Otherwise, how do you think yourself to be outside the prejudice and propaganda of the family, education and media environment we are all of us subjected to each and every day?

SilverFalcon · 09-10-2008, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo

Well, I didn't actually say he was a bigot, but I said that was a very bigoted view. I was trying to show respect for his age (he is like 60 or 70 or something) but also to make my point that just cos people are not rich, does not make them savages. Like every society is different, and we are not better than everyone else, just cos we had this big empire that exploited most of the world. It does not give us the right to go around calling people 'wogs' and stuff.

Actually my aunt told me later that she agreed with my view, but she sent me to my room cos I was impolite to this man who is older than my grandad.

But really my question is a serious one. Should I not stand up for people who are being treated unfairly, even if just in conversation? Like what if he said that it was a pity Hitler didn't finish off all the Jews? Should I just say nothing out of politeness, and respect for his years?

Leo, from an old rebel to a young one of the same breed, if you perceive evil, injustice or something that you feel is so intolerable to your sense of human decency that you cannot be in the same room with it, then get up and excuse yourself and leave. And there is nothing wrong with mentioning why you are doing so. It's called speaking out honestly.

There are ways of doing this and some of us have been powerfully vocal and made a scene before we swept from the room, but others have quietly informed those who are ignorant, bigoted, badly informed, brainwashed or just plain evil that we have no intention of sharing anything with anyone who cannot understand the protocol of human decency and who doesn't have even a smattering of intelligent compassion.

What you believe should be based on what you know and not on what others have led you to believe. On the other hand what you know shouldn't be influenced by what you have experienced piecemeal. There is always one nice friendly example of everything. What is important is justice and honour in dealing with everyone and that includes any friends and relatives, old farts, bigots, nasty frustrated cowards and the difficulties of generation gap influenced world views.

I agree with what you said and I am really impressed that you know the facts about the fertile crescent. Of course it was invaded by Arabs and has a heritage of Indo-European Persians and various others too, who make an estimation of who is who and what is what quite difficult. There are many layers in that place and now there is oil so anything that may have been is swept away in a greed for what is.

Keep that fair judgement you have. It's good and it will help you to find checks and balances in your own estimation of where you fit in in your own tempestuous heritage.

I will never be unable to speak out against injustice. I hope you will be the same, just remember that when the time comes for you to pay attention to your own folk you will need all that courage for yourself and your future. I hope you will be as good at defending it as you are at speaking up for others.

Good luck!

whypatcondellisntfun · 09-10-2008, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo

So was I wrong to correct him? Like it was a bit scary cos he went all red in the face and was banging the table and shouting at me. I mean if a grown up says something that is obviously wrong, do you have to agree?

I think you were right to debate him, but perhaps getting to the point where he was going to bust a blood vessel was going too far. You were both a guest of your Aunt so in a sense both of you were in the wrong... The guy is an adult and should no better than to go off on one at the dinner table, however, it sounds like you did provoke him a little.

Might be better next time to change the topic of conversation.

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whypatcondellisntfun

I presume that you were brought up in a vacuum and can objectively assess and pass judgement upon individual situations without recall to prejudice or stereotype? Otherwise, how do you think yourself to be outside the prejudice and propaganda of the family, education and media environment we are all of us subjected to each and every day?

The experience of other Cultures and Races teaches a lot.
If you think these people are anything like Northern Europeans you are very naive and ignorant.

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFalcon

Leo, from an old rebel to a young one of the same breed, if you perceive evil, injustice or something that you feel is so intolerable to your sense of human decency that you cannot be in the same room with it, then get up and excuse yourself and leave. And there is nothing wrong with mentioning why you are doing so. It's called speaking out honestly.

There are ways of doing this and some of us have been powerfully vocal and made a scene before we swept from the room, but others have quietly informed those who are ignorant, bigoted, badly informed, brainwashed or just plain evil that we have no intention of sharing anything with anyone who cannot understand the protocol of human decency and who doesn't have even a smattering of intelligent compassion.

What you believe should be based on what you know and not on what others have led you to believe. On the other hand what you know shouldn't be influenced by what you have experienced piecemeal. There is always one nice friendly example of everything. What is important is justice and honour in dealing with everyone and that includes any friends and relatives, old farts, bigots, nasty frustrated cowards and the difficulties of generation gap influenced world views.

I agree with what you said and I am really impressed that you know the facts about the fertile crescent. Of course it was invaded by Arabs and has a heritage of Indo-European Persians and various others too, who make an estimation of who is who and what is what quite difficult. There are many layers in that place and now there is oil so anything that may have been is swept away in a greed for what is.

Keep that fair judgement you have. It's good and it will help you to find checks and balances in your own estimation of where you fit in in your own tempestuous heritage.

I will never be unable to speak out against injustice. I hope you will be the same, just remember that when the time comes for you to pay attention to your own folk you will need all that courage for yourself and your future. I hope you will be as good at defending it as you are at speaking up for others.

Good luck!

Great put in there -

"What you believe should be based on what you know and not on what others have led you to believe."

Take a trip to the Middle East and see for yourself and you will understand the old fella.

When I was at school we all got brainwashed into thinking all the races and cultures of the earth where the same.
Travel, General experience and a study of Biology will quickly prove this nonsense wrong.

Smidgey · 09-10-2008, 12:43 PM

Still doesn't justify wanting to nuke them...

SilverFalcon · 09-10-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Still doesn't justify wanting to nuke them...

Agree, Smidge, war is evil and the truly evolved being moves away from this into his or her own sphere of thought and action where what is known and what is understood and what is experienced come together to create a world view that makes of an individual a powerful combination of capability to defend as well ability to negotiate. If push comes to shove, give the warriors the word, but how many times does this happen when it could have been avoided by understanding even some of those sometimes vast differences between peoples?

The "War on Terror" is but one of these instances of a failure to conceptualise a solution because the entire fiasco is based on pre-planned action and imperialist aspiration.

I still think Baden Powell gave the scouts a good grounding in these matters when he taught them how to survive under various conditions by always "being prepared." How many times have things gone wrong because no one was on duty when the enemy planes took off, or the troops came over the hill a noon instead of dawn? My father's favourite saying was "keep your powder dry" and this was a parting phrase whenever he and his war veteran friends went home. "Jericho, boys, and keep your powder dry."

Good advice. We would be a lot better off if politically correct institutions were dumped in favour of some elementary survival guidance and a balanced view of the human horde. You just never know when a talking stick may become a blade and as long as you realise that this is possible, peace is also possible. Forgetting this is like forgetting that bees don't "give us honey", we take it from them. At least that is how I always used to look at my world, and still do. If they sting me while I'm stealing it I can't very well complain and if I kill them when they come after me they must know that I too have weapons. Honey can keep flowing when both sides understand one another's aspirations and limitations.

Being human is harder than being anything else on earth, but once here, we have no choice but to be ourselves. It's our challenge and so far we have succeeded admirably in some ways and are now failing miserably in others. If we don't wake up I give us a few more generations and we shall have destroyed everything our ancestors built and we shall have to beg for bread from the east. Our ultimate reward for thinking we had all the answers when we didn't yet know all of the questions.

whypatcondellisntfun · 09-10-2008, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFalcon

Agree, Smidge, war is evil and the truly evolved being moves away from this into his or her own sphere of thought and action where what is known and what is understood and what is experienced come together to create a world view that makes of an individual a powerful combination of capability to defend as well ability to negotiate. If push comes to shove, give the warriors the word, but how many times does this happen when it could have been avoided by understanding even some of those sometimes vast differences between peoples?

The "War on Terror" is but one of these instances of a failure to conceptualise a solution because the entire fiasco is based on pre-planned action and imperialist aspiration.

I still think Baden Powell gave the scouts a good grounding in these matters when he taught them how to survive under various conditions by always "being prepared." How many times have things gone wrong because no one was on duty when the enemy planes took off, or the troops came over the hill a noon instead of dawn? My father's favourite saying was "keep your powder dry" and this was a parting phrase whenever he and his war veteran friends went home. "Jericho, boys, and keep your powder dry."

Good advice. We would be a lot better off if politically correct institutions were dumped in favour of some elementary survival guidance and a balanced view of the human horde. You just never know when a talking stick may become a blade and as long as you realise that this is possible, peace is also possible. Forgetting this is like forgetting that bees don't "give us honey", we take it from them. At least that is how I always used to look at my world, and still do. If they sting me while I'm stealing it I can't very well complain and if I kill them when they come after me they must know that I too have weapons. Honey can keep flowing when both sides understand one another's aspirations and limitations.

Being human is harder than being anything else on earth, but once here, we have no choice but to be ourselves. It's our challenge and so far we have succeeded admirably in some ways and are now failing miserably in others. If we don't wake up I give us a few more generations and we shall have destroyed everything our ancestors built and we shall have to beg for bread from the east. Our ultimate reward for thinking we had all the answers when we didn't yet know all of the questions.

Holy Moly. Where did you come from, and why have I not seen you posting before? Some amazingly inspirational words.

British-Conservatism · 09-10-2008, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smidgey

Still doesn't justify wanting to nuke them...

Of course I wouldnt want to nuke them not I doubt would the old bloke in question.
He was just expressing his view of their worth no doubt.

09-10-2008, 12:43 PM	#17 (permalink)
Smidgey Uber Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 2,210 Party: Libertarian Party	Still doesn't justify wanting to nuke them... __________________ How vain is man, who boasts in fight the valour of gigantic might! -Georg Friedrich Händel

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