The rise of the liberals

a swansong 4 europe · 10-07-2008, 08:58 PM

MikeUk, what does this mean:

"Save St Georges Hall and the Orange Lodges and Liverpool and its scummy denizens can sink beneath the waves forever as far as I am concerned."

Please, explain?

Dilke · 11-07-2008, 02:15 PM

What is the true policy of the continuity Liberal Party to the EU, is it really as many moderate UKIPers see it, a commitment to leave the EU?

“The Liberal Party believes that the EU is in need of fundamental reform, and that to force such reforms the UK may have to threaten to withdraw from the EU.”

In Liverpool its translated to a simple ‘Stuff the EU’ message, music to UKIPers’ ears; but in Ryedale and Wyre Forrest it is translated to a more ambiguous ‘we want a reformed EU’ or ‘we want a democratic EU’, what does that mean.

Tom Wilde · 11-07-2008, 04:28 PM

The Liberal Party contains a range of opinions about Britain's EU membership, though Michael Meadowcroft's departure for the LibDems last year shifted the balance of opinion markedly as he was VERY pro-EU.

Here's the current Liberal policy on the EU, formulated when Meadowcroft was still influentil in the party

Liberal Party Policy Statement :: International Issues

Quote:

European Union

The Liberal Party opposes the European Union as currently constituted. In particular we oppose the concept of a Single European Currency, harmonisation of taxes and any move towards a Single European Army. Instead, we support the concept of a Commonwealth of Europe in which communities are free to operate their own economies, use their own currencies and levy their own taxes, while making common cause on matters of regional concern such as peace and the environment. The Liberal Party seeks to reform the European Union from within and recognises that the enlargement of the EU will have a substantial impact in stimulating trade and prosperity, will protect democracy and human rights and has already made a significant contribution to political stability and international security in Eastern Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean.

We call for a new and fully democratic structure under the control of the European Parliament. We require the adoption of a role which would guarantee human rights and the freedom of movement of people, ideas and goods, would act to save the environment, arbitrate in disputes and would encourage the separate nations to work together in matters of foreign policy, defence and overseas aid.

The Liberal Party supports the calls for a referendum to be held on the proposed new EU Constitution. The proposals contained in the Draft Constitution are inimical to the Liberal Party concept of a Commonwealth of Europe.

I've seen various Liberal leaflets etc saying that if it proves impossible to reform the EU on the lines indicated above, that we should then support British withdrawal from the EU. An example is the policies section of the Cornish Liberals website:

Quote:

Liberals consider the European Union is an unaccountable, non-democratic and corrupt organisation in need of major reforms. The E.U. have not had their budgets and spending successfully audited and signed off for 11 years. The E.U. has wrecked British Farming - especially Dairy Farming - and destroyed British Fishing grounds. Britain needs to re-negotiate our trade agreements with the E.U. and stand back from the political Integration within the E.U. If negotiations fail then the U.K. should leave the E.U. and regain our Independent Sovereignty as a better way, for a happier and more prosperous Nation for our citizens to live in.

http://www.cornishliberalparty.org.uk/

Many supporters of the Liberal Party (including me) feel that it probably is now impossible to reform the EU in this way - so that logically we should now support withdrawal.

The Liberal Party's other well-known EU-related policy is to oppose the Treaty of Lisbon, and also to support holding a referendum on that treaty because of its constitutional implications:

Motions Passed at the 2007 Liberal Party Assembly

We think that Labour and the LibDem's clearly promised such a referendum at the last general election and should have fulfilled that promise now. We tried hard to get our fellow liberals in the Liberal Democrat Party to keep that promise, but sadly Clegg decided to wriggle out of it, covering his tracks with a load of dishonest waffle about supporting a referendum on EU membership instead. (However, the LibDem peers rather dramatically showed this to be just a load of hot air - by unanimously abstaining on a UKIP peer's motion supporting just such a referendum.)

Millennium3 · 11-07-2008, 04:53 PM

Tom: Do you know if any motions are being put to the National Assembly to harden up on the post MM departure stance?

Dilke · 11-07-2008, 11:40 PM

Well this is what was said in a leaflet send to me and other committee members of the Far West Federation of the NULC (National Union of Liberal Clubs) in 1990:- Liberals look forward to a world in which all people can live together in peace and democracy. We favour: Full participation in the European Community, with greater European integration in monetary and economic matters and a joint approach to foreign policy. The replacement of NATO by a combined European Security Force which would support the United Nations' role of international policing and peace keeping. So a bit of a change there!

Lib Dems should have had a referendum on Lisbon because it is conference policy to put any change in the relationship with the EU to the people via referenda (a policy strongly denounced at the time by the con Libs). It is totally bogus to say the EU constitution and Lisbon Treaty are the same; they aren't. And nonsence therefore try to claim a promise to have a referendum on the EU constitution applies to Lisbon. The Liberal Assembly seems to agree with me on this, because it gave the party a fresh mandate in 2007 to seek a referendum on Lisbon; had the treaty and constitution been the same this would not have been necessary. Still can a party that ignored a referendum on merger criticize - 88% in favour.(Matt 7:4 )

Tom Wilde · 14-07-2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Millennium3

Tom: Do you know if any motions are being put to the National Assembly to harden up on the post MM departure stance?

Sorry - I haven't heard what motions have been submitted so far. The deadline for motions is 31st July - just over 2 weeks off. I posted a copy of the call for motions on the Liberal Forum:

Liberal Forum :: View topic - 2008 Liberal Assembly - Call for Motions

Tom Wilde · 14-07-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilke

Well this is what was said in a leaflet send to me and other committee members of the Far West Federation of the NULC (National Union of Liberal Clubs) in 1990:- Liberals look forward to a world in which all people can live together in peace and democracy. We favour: Full participation in the European Community, with greater European integration in monetary and economic matters and a joint approach to foreign policy. The replacement of NATO by a combined European Security Force which would support the United Nations' role of international policing and peace keeping. So a bit of a change there!

Yes indeedy! I'm very glad the Liberals have since seen the light. I don't know the full story behind that, but by 1999 they already had quite a sceptical stance, and by 2003 they were campaigning hard against the single currency.

Of course, the EU has also changed a bit since 1990 (Maastricht, anyone?) and not in a direction that Liberals (or even liberals) would generally approve. A member of our party once said: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

a swansong 4 europe · 14-07-2008, 07:56 PM

It is also maybe reasonable to say, therefore, that if, in the event of changing situations, the Liberals AGAIN chose to switch opinions, where would that leave you?

I mean, Who can honestly say, that if the French, Dutch and Irish had all recently voted heavily in favour of the EU in their respective polls, then the Liberal party, operating on a principle of "if you can't beat them, join them" sort of approach would actually adopt a MORE pro-EU stance to match the current reflection of a Europe-wide opinion as demonstrated in such circumstances.

It seems to me the Liberal Party are simply adopting whatever mood appears to be in present vogue, and have done so for some time.

Tom Wilde · 14-07-2008, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a swansong 4 europe

It is also maybe reasonable to say, therefore, that if, in the event of changing situations, the Liberals AGAIN chose to switch opinions, where would that leave you?

If the Liberals switch opinions on any given subject then I will either stay with them or not, depending on whether or not and to what degree I support that change. But surely that is true of all supporters of all parties? Or are you different, swansong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by a swansong 4 europe

It seems to me the Liberal Party are simply adopting whatever mood appears to be in present vogue, and have done so for some time.

There are plenty of disadvantages to supporting a tiny party with only 30 district/county councillors, but I would have thought that one of the few advantages was that nobody could ever accuse us of slavishly courting popularity. Obviously I was wrong.

Dilke · 15-07-2008, 12:16 AM

The policy is of UKIP on the EU is clear, agree or disagree you know where they stand – and respect them for it. In contrast the continuity Liberal Party’s policy is forever changing, and as Swan Song says could change back again with a handful of votes. A large minority of the party are pro EU. The current policy is ambiguous at best, quite possibly deliberately to keep party unity. The same policy is variously described as a policy of total withdrawal from the EU, to a plan to reform the EU, depending who is explaining it.

Maastricht… oh yes what did the con Libs say when Paddy Ashdown called for a referendum on that…
“In contrast to the Liberal Democrats who have called for a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty - the Liberal Party opposes referenda in principle, believing that the democratic forum is the crucible of debate and decision making; the promotion of referenda undermines the Liberal rock of active and representative democracy, and the key Liberal doctrine of democratic consent.”
I’m not happy with Clegg’s position on Lisbon, but after what the con Libs said about a Maastricht referendum, they are in no position to criticize.
It’s not just changing policies to meet changing circumstances, it’s doing a complete volt face on a ‘key Liberal doctrine’.

11-07-2008, 04:53 PM	#44 (permalink)
Millennium3 Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Berkshire Posts: 4,568	Tom: Do you know if any motions are being put to the National Assembly to harden up on the post MM departure stance? __________________ Master Rinzai advised: If you meet a swordsman on the road, show him your sword. Do not offer your poem to a man who is not a poet.

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10-07-2008, 08:58 PM	#41 (permalink)
a swansong 4 europe Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 411	MikeUk, what does this mean: "Save St Georges Hall and the Orange Lodges and Liverpool and its scummy denizens can sink beneath the waves forever as far as I am concerned." Please, explain?

11-07-2008, 02:15 PM	#42 (permalink)
Dilke Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Westcountry Posts: 56 Party: Other	What is the true policy of the continuity Liberal Party to the EU, is it really as many moderate UKIPers see it, a commitment to leave the EU? “The Liberal Party believes that the EU is in need of fundamental reform, and that to force such reforms the UK may have to threaten to withdraw from the EU.” In Liverpool its translated to a simple ‘Stuff the EU’ message, music to UKIPers’ ears; but in Ryedale and Wyre Forrest it is translated to a more ambiguous ‘we want a reformed EU’ or ‘we want a democratic EU’, what does that mean.

11-07-2008, 11:40 PM	#45 (permalink)
Dilke Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Westcountry Posts: 56 Party: Other	Well this is what was said in a leaflet send to me and other committee members of the Far West Federation of the NULC (National Union of Liberal Clubs) in 1990:- Liberals look forward to a world in which all people can live together in peace and democracy. We favour: Full participation in the European Community, with greater European integration in monetary and economic matters and a joint approach to foreign policy. The replacement of NATO by a combined European Security Force which would support the United Nations' role of international policing and peace keeping. So a bit of a change there! Lib Dems should have had a referendum on Lisbon because it is conference policy to put any change in the relationship with the EU to the people via referenda (a policy strongly denounced at the time by the con Libs). It is totally bogus to say the EU constitution and Lisbon Treaty are the same; they aren't. And nonsence therefore try to claim a promise to have a referendum on the EU constitution applies to Lisbon. The Liberal Assembly seems to agree with me on this, because it gave the party a fresh mandate in 2007 to seek a referendum on Lisbon; had the treaty and constitution been the same this would not have been necessary. Still can a party that ignored a referendum on merger criticize - 88% in favour.(Matt 7:4 )

14-07-2008, 07:56 PM	#48 (permalink)
a swansong 4 europe Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 411	It is also maybe reasonable to say, therefore, that if, in the event of changing situations, the Liberals AGAIN chose to switch opinions, where would that leave you? I mean, Who can honestly say, that if the French, Dutch and Irish had all recently voted heavily in favour of the EU in their respective polls, then the Liberal party, operating on a principle of "if you can't beat them, join them" sort of approach would actually adopt a MORE pro-EU stance to match the current reflection of a Europe-wide opinion as demonstrated in such circumstances. It seems to me the Liberal Party are simply adopting whatever mood appears to be in present vogue, and have done so for some time.

15-07-2008, 12:16 AM	#50 (permalink)
Dilke Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Westcountry Posts: 56 Party: Other	The policy is of UKIP on the EU is clear, agree or disagree you know where they stand – and respect them for it. In contrast the continuity Liberal Party’s policy is forever changing, and as Swan Song says could change back again with a handful of votes. A large minority of the party are pro EU. The current policy is ambiguous at best, quite possibly deliberately to keep party unity. The same policy is variously described as a policy of total withdrawal from the EU, to a plan to reform the EU, depending who is explaining it. Maastricht… oh yes what did the con Libs say when Paddy Ashdown called for a referendum on that… “In contrast to the Liberal Democrats who have called for a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty - the Liberal Party opposes referenda in principle, believing that the democratic forum is the crucible of debate and decision making; the promotion of referenda undermines the Liberal rock of active and representative democracy, and the key Liberal doctrine of democratic consent.” I’m not happy with Clegg’s position on Lisbon, but after what the con Libs said about a Maastricht referendum, they are in no position to criticize. It’s not just changing policies to meet changing circumstances, it’s doing a complete volt face on a ‘key Liberal doctrine’.