Scandal Ed Abrams "has left the ED's"

Northumbrian · 04-10-2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassie

My response to that question was: "Whether indications of voters' support for a separate English Parliament is significantly greater than for independence." However, it seems that YOU - a so called separatist - need to depend upon what political opinion is in Scotland - see Post#13!

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It's not dependent on Scotland, but you can't rule out the possibily of inter-connectivity. There must be some people in England who've noticed the rise of the SNP and thought 'if independence is on the agenda in Scotland, then why not England too?'

Don't you think?

Northumbrian · 04-10-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassie

So what? Far more important is the statistical possibility [indeed opinion polls indicate that it is a statistical fact] of significantly fewer voters being in favour of independence(separation) than those in favour of a separate English Parliament!

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Why is it important then? The main object of politics is to win votes at the ballot box. Now if the EDP and the FEP are achieving similar returns at the ballot box, that shows independence supporters are more committed to voting for a pro-independence party than pro-EP supporters are for voting for a pro-EP party.

So you have to ask yourself 'what use are these extra English Parliament supporters?'

Richard the Lionheart · 04-10-2008, 05:19 PM

An English parliament based on the Scottish model will require circa 1,000 extra politicians. I can't see people voting for that. I also cannot see any of the major parties favouring it.

What I can see, is the SNP pushing an independence referendum to the fore, and if they get a referendum on independence for their nation, then so should the other nations in the union, and that's what should be campaigned for, like we do in Free England.

However, we know the EDP are against an independent England as witnessed at their conference last year, and they favour a federal UK. The question is, in order to realise their ambition of a federal UK, would they oppose a referendum for England on independence?

cassie · 04-10-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northumbrian

It's not dependent on Scotland, but you can't rule out the possibily of inter-connectivity. There must be some people in England who've noticed the rise of the SNP and thought 'if independence is on the agenda in Scotland, then why not England too?'

Don't you think?

You've shifted onto other ground! I presume that you conceded the original.

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cassie · 04-10-2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northumbrian

Why is it important then? The main object of politics is to win votes at the ballot box. Now if the EDP and the FEP are achieving similar returns at the ballot box, that shows independence supporters are more committed to voting for a pro-independence party than pro-EP supporters are for voting for a pro-EP party.

So you have to ask yourself 'what use are these extra English Parliament supporters?'

Your apparent failure to understand the significance explains why you are so intolerant of the EDP's position. Besides, you can hardly equate the very few FEP's results with those of the EDP. Indeed, the FEP has yet to contest a Parliamentary seat!

Proponents of a separate English Parliament believe that it will attract more support than separation! The irony is that, once a separate English Parliament has been created, the British Parliament will be a shadow of its present self with all the devolved English powers stripped out. Brits such as Brown, Darling, Reid, Campbell, Kennedy, Cameron. Rifkind, Gove et al will have much less to interfere with . . . assuming that rampant English pride has not already removed some of them from Parliamentary seats in England!

Given that all the evidence is that there is less support for separation, why adopt it as policy rather than another which will virtually achieve most of it by other means and seems more likely to do so? Furthermore, once an English Parliament is created, the possibility will still remain for separation!

THAT'S the importance!

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cassie · 04-10-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard the Lionheart

An English parliament based on the Scottish model will require circa 1,000 extra politicians. I can't see people voting for that. I also cannot see any of the major parties favouring it.

Oh dear, and there's no other possible alternative, I suppose?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard the Lionheart

What I can see, is the SNP pushing an independence referendum to the fore, and if they get a referendum on independence for their nation, then so should the other nations in the union, and that's what should be campaigned for, like we do in Free England.

ALL English nationalists should be campaigning for the 84% of the UK's voters in England to participate in any referendum which would affect the UK's constitution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard the Lionheart

However, we know the EDP are against an independent England as witnessed at their conference last year, and they favour a federal UK. The question is, in order to realise their ambition of a federal UK, would they oppose a referendum for England on independence?

One can always rely upon a political opponent to misrepresent one's policies in a vain effort to bolster a weak position! Because the EDP favours - prefers if you like! - a separate English Parliament, that does not automatically mean it is 'against' an independent England! You are scraping the barrel to fabricate differences which are not there Richard!

Why on earth would the EDP want to oppose ANY referendum?

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Richard the Lionheart · 04-10-2008, 06:18 PM

To answer your post:

yes, there is another solution, and that's to cut the number of MPs at Westminster and become self-governing nations. England could manage very well on her own, although your perceived support of a federal UK indicates you don't.

You statement :

Quote:

One can always rely upon a political opponent to misrepresent one's policies in a vain effort to bolster a weak position! Because the EDP favours - prefers if you like! - a separate English Parliament, that does not automatically mean it is 'against' an independent England! You are scraping the barrel to fabricate differences which are not there Richard!

Why on earth would the EDP want to oppose ANY referendum?

Is very easy to answer. The EDP rejected a policy of independence at their conference last year, which would suggest they are against it. The proposal stated that the party should offer the people a referendum on independence, which was soundly rejected. That is clear evidence they oppose a referendum on English independence.

I refute your claim that I have misrepresented their policies. I said they support a federal UK, which they do, I said they oppose a referendum on independence, which they did in September 2007.

I also post this from their website:

Quote:

Are you against the Union and the United Kingdom?

Unlike the SNP and Plaid Cymru we are not seeking independence for England and we are not anti the Union. We are simply pro English. We would like to see a continuation of the Union of Great Britain, but with willing participants, and a new post devolutionary agreement. We would govern in the name of England, and would work with political parties in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland for the good and stability of the union.

Our model is for there to be a Parliament for Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and England and for the existing House of Lords to be scrapped and replaced by representatives of all parts of the United Kingdom which would work to scrutinise policy across the Union and minimize differences to keep the Union stable. The current asymmetrical devolution is unstable and is likely to destroy the Union in the medium term – we would not want to see this happen.

Quite clearly, they oppose the breakup of the UK, so it must be fair to conclude they would also oppose a referendum which could lead to the break up of the union.

I do not argue from a weak position. I believe wholeheartedly in England being a successful independent nation state.

Unless of course, you believe wholeheartedly England cannot survive outside the union?

Fred · 04-10-2008, 08:32 PM

Interesting.
You are all on side!

cassie · 05-10-2008, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard the Lionheart

To answer your post:

yes, there is another solution, and that's to cut the number of MPs at Westminster and become self-governing nations. England could manage very well on her own, although your perceived support of a federal UK indicates you don't.

You statement :

Is very easy to answer. The EDP rejected a policy of independence at their conference last year, which would suggest they are against it. The proposal stated that the party should offer the people a referendum on independence, which was soundly rejected. That is clear evidence they oppose a referendum on English independence.

I refute your claim that I have misrepresented their policies. I said they support a federal UK, which they do, I said they oppose a referendum on independence, which they did in September 2007.

I also post this from their website:

Quite clearly, they oppose the breakup of the UK, so it must be fair to conclude they would also oppose a referendum which could lead to the break up of the union.

I do not argue from a weak position. I believe wholeheartedly in England being a successful independent nation state.

Unless of course, you believe wholeheartedly England cannot survive outside the union?

I'm afraid that, whether you realise it or not, you are playing with words!

Because - to use your words - "they oppose the breakup of the UK", that does not entitle you to conclude it automatically means - to use your words again - "the EDP are against an independent England". Quite simply, this is a variant of the old "if you are not with us, you are against us!" . . . an unwise tactic used by Bush!

You are entitled to draw your own conclusions, but you are not entitled to represent them as the EDP's. This, combined with your presumption about the EDP's position on a referendum about independence, seems designed to fabricate differences which may not be there purely for the sake of doing so! This is not the kind of politiking I admire!

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Northumbrian · 05-10-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassie

You've shifted onto other ground! I presume that you conceded the original.

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So? The only reason the CEP and EDP were founded was because a Scottish Parliament was created, and they frequently use that to justify why there should be an English Parliament.

So if anything, their position is more dependent on Scotland than ours.

04-10-2008, 05:19 PM	#23 (permalink)
Richard the Lionheart Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 607 Party: Free England Party	An English parliament based on the Scottish model will require circa 1,000 extra politicians. I can't see people voting for that. I also cannot see any of the major parties favouring it. What I can see, is the SNP pushing an independence referendum to the fore, and if they get a referendum on independence for their nation, then so should the other nations in the union, and that's what should be campaigned for, like we do in Free England. However, we know the EDP are against an independent England as witnessed at their conference last year, and they favour a federal UK. The question is, in order to realise their ambition of a federal UK, would they oppose a referendum for England on independence? __________________ The Free England Party - England's Premier Nationalist Party www.freeengland.com .....Serious about England

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04-10-2008, 08:32 PM	#28 (permalink)
Fred Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Worcester Posts: 12	Interesting. You are all on side!