Cameron to snatch UKIP voters?

HM · 14-06-2008, 01:50 AM

What I'm worried about is if Dave the Chameleon and the Tory Party decide to steal UKIP's limelight on this one (i.e. British ratification of the T of L) - and then go for it full speed ahead in the 2009 Euro Elections and manage to snatch some of our 3 million (and other potential) voters.

He has already released a statement which was highly critical of Miliband and the pro-ratification mob (which probably includes the Lib Dums as well). Of course that mob will outnumber Tories, the DUP lot and UKIP if it ever gets debated, but I still see the Tories as flexing their muscles in our direction. N.B. also Michael Gove's performance on Question Time last night, where he was also critical of the current EU.

Accuse me of being paranoid, but they seem more than happy enough to "bang on about Europe" now, don't they?

Baron von Lotsov · 14-06-2008, 02:12 AM

Yes and we'd be far unhappier if they weren’t. I personally don't think Cameron is as europhile as some UKIP'ers think he is. He's coming closer to the UKIP's position and it will be a win-win situation and more will join one or the other parties. What counts is the more the merrier and that will happen if people stop the infighting and spend more time encouraging eurosceptics, whatever party they are from.

Also some people change, I mean who can honestly say they had exactly the same views on everything that they did, say 10 years ago. The arguments of the eurosceptics are far stronger now; so expect even some former europhiles to join in. It's harder for them to since they will be accused of being false or uturning, but it is more important to be right than to be consistent with what you find out is wrong. As long as Cameron keeps saying that we should have a referendum/or scrap the constitution then I'm happy.

alfred the great · 14-06-2008, 10:56 AM

Anybody who thinks ,the torys or new labour are going to give us a referendum are living in cuckhoo land. Who was it who took us in in 1972-1973. Who was it who signed the maastricht treaty , Yes the good old torys. UKIP owns it existence to the rump of torys , who dont want europe.The torys can flex there muscles has much has they like, if your daft enough to beleive em thats your business.

Independence Now! · 14-06-2008, 02:07 PM

Spot-on, alfred the Great. The CONServative Party as you said took us into this mess in 1973 (WITHOUT a referendum of the people) and has remained consistently committed to the 'Project' ever since. Politicians of most parties are loath to admit to lying to the electorate or their mistakes and the CONS are especially so. They will NEVER offer the British people a referendum on the ONLY question that makes logical sense ie IN OR OUT.

I am estatic the people of the Republic voted no because this is going to cause real trouble for the Tories over the next two years. Dave Boy was hoping he could get through to the next election without mentioning this vital subject and now he can't thanks to the Irish. If Brown plays his cards right, he can get the CONS to fall apart over this issue and expose themselves as the 'anti-EU' HYPOCRITES that they are.

eublues · 14-06-2008, 02:16 PM

The Tories are fully committed to us staying in the EU. Any huffing and puffing from Cameron is meaningless.

HM · 14-06-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eublues

The Tories are fully committed to us staying in the EU. Any huffing and puffing from Cameron is meaningless.

But will voters realise this?

kernow · 14-06-2008, 03:52 PM

If Cameron came out and said, "If the Conservatives win the next GE, we will definately withdraw Britain from the European Union", and this was backed by the whole Tory front line, then the Tories would get my vote again! As the chances of that happening are less than me flying to the Moon under my own power, I'll be sticking to UKIP!

Baron von Lotsov · 14-06-2008, 05:09 PM

Yes but the Conservatives have an impressive lead and are likely to be in power soon. If they adopted the position of the UKIP straight away they would split into pieces and Labour would win the next election and then you would stand no chance. Cameron has been especially careful not to allow the party to split over Europe, which has kept it out of power for a long time now. He banned people who were in anti-EU lobby groups but also I saw an example the other day of him banning someone in a pro-EU lobby group. This has put a stop to the splitting process within the party and now as events go against Europe, Cameron can command a consensus that is mildly eurosceptic.

The point they all seem to agree on is that we should have a referendum. They know full well that if we had one it would return a strong "No" and so what they support now is no further European federalism. They are putting the brakes on it and still remaining together. I suspect once things get worse for Europe they will gradually try and claw back some of the powers we have lost. The UKIP on the other hand is different and it says we must leave. Some people will favour one strategy and some the other. If you see it as a seesaw then it's like having a small weight at the end of it and a large weight somewhere between the UKIP and the pivot point. Both tilt it in the right direction and will continue to do so more and more as the EU gets progressively more unpopular with the public.

a swansong 4 europe · 14-06-2008, 06:08 PM

Too many people have bad memories of the Tories in the 80's and early 90's, so might not vote Tory just to get out of the EU. Also, why believe a party that took us in and helped keep us in with the Single European Act and Maastricht? When a Tory leader admits that their party was WRONG to take us into "Europe" or at leats deny us a poll on the subject, then you might begin to believe in them.

It would take a commitment of at least two of the three main parties to acknowledge that the time is ripe for a resolution of the European question at least in terms of the UK's involvement, so giving the people a wider choice in voting.

For_England · 14-06-2008, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UkipHM

What I'm worried about is if Dave the Chameleon and the Tory Party decide to steal UKIP's limelight on this one (i.e. British ratification of the T of L) - and then go for it full speed ahead in the 2009 Euro Elections and manage to snatch some of our 3 million (and other potential) voters.

He has already released a statement which was highly critical of Miliband and the pro-ratification mob (which probably includes the Lib Dums as well). Of course that mob will outnumber Tories, the DUP lot and UKIP if it ever gets debated, but I still see the Tories as flexing their muscles in our direction. N.B. also Michael Gove's performance on Question Time last night, where he was also critical of the current EU.

Accuse me of being paranoid, but they seem more than happy enough to "bang on about Europe" now, don't they?

Yep, everthing is going according to plan

Cameron will win back alot of the UKIP vote, and what doesn't go to him will go to the BNP. Then Cameron will be in power, will prove to the world that the Conservatives are just as useless and unable to deal with the increasing problems overtaking the world, clearing the way for a nationalist government, where the indigenous people will be in charge of their country once more, not globalists.

14-06-2008, 01:50 AM	#1 (permalink)
HM Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 995 Party: None	Cameron to snatch UKIP voters? What I'm worried about is if Dave the Chameleon and the Tory Party decide to steal UKIP's limelight on this one (i.e. British ratification of the T of L) - and then go for it full speed ahead in the 2009 Euro Elections and manage to snatch some of our 3 million (and other potential) voters. He has already released a statement which was highly critical of Miliband and the pro-ratification mob (which probably includes the Lib Dums as well). Of course that mob will outnumber Tories, the DUP lot and UKIP if it ever gets debated, but I still see the Tories as flexing their muscles in our direction. N.B. also Michael Gove's performance on Question Time last night, where he was also critical of the current EU. Accuse me of being paranoid, but they seem more than happy enough to "bang on about Europe" now, don't they? __________________ Respice post te; hominem te esse memento! Last edited by HM; 14-06-2008 at 01:57 AM.

14-06-2008, 02:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
Baron von Lotsov Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,133	Yes and we'd be far unhappier if they weren’t. I personally don't think Cameron is as europhile as some UKIP'ers think he is. He's coming closer to the UKIP's position and it will be a win-win situation and more will join one or the other parties. What counts is the more the merrier and that will happen if people stop the infighting and spend more time encouraging eurosceptics, whatever party they are from. Also some people change, I mean who can honestly say they had exactly the same views on everything that they did, say 10 years ago. The arguments of the eurosceptics are far stronger now; so expect even some former europhiles to join in. It's harder for them to since they will be accused of being false or uturning, but it is more important to be right than to be consistent with what you find out is wrong. As long as Cameron keeps saying that we should have a referendum/or scrap the constitution then I'm happy. __________________ "A government big enough to supply you with everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have..."

14-06-2008, 05:09 PM	#8 (permalink)
Baron von Lotsov Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,133	Yes but the Conservatives have an impressive lead and are likely to be in power soon. If they adopted the position of the UKIP straight away they would split into pieces and Labour would win the next election and then you would stand no chance. Cameron has been especially careful not to allow the party to split over Europe, which has kept it out of power for a long time now. He banned people who were in anti-EU lobby groups but also I saw an example the other day of him banning someone in a pro-EU lobby group. This has put a stop to the splitting process within the party and now as events go against Europe, Cameron can command a consensus that is mildly eurosceptic. The point they all seem to agree on is that we should have a referendum. They know full well that if we had one it would return a strong "No" and so what they support now is no further European federalism. They are putting the brakes on it and still remaining together. I suspect once things get worse for Europe they will gradually try and claw back some of the powers we have lost. The UKIP on the other hand is different and it says we must leave. Some people will favour one strategy and some the other. If you see it as a seesaw then it's like having a small weight at the end of it and a large weight somewhere between the UKIP and the pivot point. Both tilt it in the right direction and will continue to do so more and more as the EU gets progressively more unpopular with the public. __________________ "A government big enough to supply you with everything you need, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have..."

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14-06-2008, 10:56 AM	#3 (permalink)
alfred the great Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 292	Anybody who thinks ,the torys or new labour are going to give us a referendum are living in cuckhoo land. Who was it who took us in in 1972-1973. Who was it who signed the maastricht treaty , Yes the good old torys. UKIP owns it existence to the rump of torys , who dont want europe.The torys can flex there muscles has much has they like, if your daft enough to beleive em thats your business.

14-06-2008, 02:07 PM	#4 (permalink)
Independence Now! Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,096	Spot-on, alfred the Great. The CONServative Party as you said took us into this mess in 1973 (WITHOUT a referendum of the people) and has remained consistently committed to the 'Project' ever since. Politicians of most parties are loath to admit to lying to the electorate or their mistakes and the CONS are especially so. They will NEVER offer the British people a referendum on the ONLY question that makes logical sense ie IN OR OUT. I am estatic the people of the Republic voted no because this is going to cause real trouble for the Tories over the next two years. Dave Boy was hoping he could get through to the next election without mentioning this vital subject and now he can't thanks to the Irish. If Brown plays his cards right, he can get the CONS to fall apart over this issue and expose themselves as the 'anti-EU' HYPOCRITES that they are.

14-06-2008, 02:16 PM	#5 (permalink)
eublues Uber Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,122	The Tories are fully committed to us staying in the EU. Any huffing and puffing from Cameron is meaningless.

14-06-2008, 03:52 PM	#7 (permalink)
kernow Uber Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,182	If Cameron came out and said, "If the Conservatives win the next GE, we will definately withdraw Britain from the European Union", and this was backed by the whole Tory front line, then the Tories would get my vote again! As the chances of that happening are less than me flying to the Moon under my own power, I'll be sticking to UKIP!

14-06-2008, 06:08 PM	#9 (permalink)
a swansong 4 europe Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 411	Too many people have bad memories of the Tories in the 80's and early 90's, so might not vote Tory just to get out of the EU. Also, why believe a party that took us in and helped keep us in with the Single European Act and Maastricht? When a Tory leader admits that their party was WRONG to take us into "Europe" or at leats deny us a poll on the subject, then you might begin to believe in them. It would take a commitment of at least two of the three main parties to acknowledge that the time is ripe for a resolution of the European question at least in terms of the UK's involvement, so giving the people a wider choice in voting.