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Originally Posted by progcon.org
"Progcon - please don't be offended, but it appears that you are looking for a magic bullet that will get us out of the EU quickly."
Not offended at all. Straight talking is always welcome.
However what I am trying to get you guys doing is not saying what you would like to happen, but ways of measuring if actual progress is being made towards the goal of EU withdrawal.
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I would say that actual progress is being made. First of all, consider the opinion polls? The British public is far less accepting of the EU that it was even five years ago. All three of the establishment parties felt it necessary in 2005 to promise a Referendum on the EU Constitution.
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#1 If every single British MEP belonged to UKIP would it make the slighest difference to the parties in Westminster considering that Britain's membership of the EU will be decided there?
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Nope. I'm in full agreement with you there. In fact I've said it time and again.
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I suggest it will not make any difference at all. I agree that having elected officials in some capacity offers some degree of respectability, but does it get us any closer to getting out? No.
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"I'm sorry, but there is only way out at this time. UKIP needs to become strong enough to win seats on local and county councils, and in Westminister. Only when it starts costing the three establishment parties seats and threatens to cost them the opportunity to form government may we see a change in attitude."
No need to apologise as I 100% agree with you. It is the *only* way to achieve the goal of EU withdrawal. We are in agreement.[/quote]
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Unfortunately, UKIP is going backwards not forwards in terms of getting people elected into the HoC (Bob Spink was a welcome but one-off bonus). For me, every single penny spent on getting people elected as an MEP, is another penny wasted.
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Next years Euro elections are important if for no other reason than that it has been some time since we last tasted electoral success. The troops are getting restive and need to achieve some sort of electoral victory to be inspired. Furthermore, it looks quite likely that next year's County Council elections will be scheduled to coincide with the Euros. You have just agreed that we need to elect local and county councillors if we want to get into Westminster, so wouldn't it make sense to campaign for County Council seats in conjunction with the Euro elections which are where UKIP polls most strongly?
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We both agree on the place UKIP needs to get elected to make a difference, and UKIP does not have the funds to fight on two fronts, and no progress has been made in finding new members or new donors to change this.
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At the moment UKIP doesn't have funds to get members elected to either Brussels or Westminster. However I wager that it would be easier to find donors welling to open their wallets for next years elections than it will be
to find them for the next Westminster elections when most of the big donors will be lining up to donate to soon-to-be Prime Minister Cameron. However, success breeds success and if we do well next year then it is possible that we will be able to find some funding for 2010. I do know that if we just sat out next year's election everyone will conclude that it is because we are a busted flush and then nobody will open their wallets to offer UKIP donations - unless you are suggesting that you have the cash to fund a general election campaign?
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With just 15,000 members and no new big donors since Nigel took office almost 2 years ago, UKIP is currently incapable of getting people elected into the establishments we both agree are the only place it can achieve its goals.
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Yup, I agree completely with your assessment of our current electoral capabilities. As I have previously stated, if I get elected as an MEP I will devote as much of my time, and income as possible to boosting the membership in the Southeast Region and improving our electoral prospects. But in your originating post on this thread you criticized me and other MEPs candidates (presumably Ray Finch) who have also promised this.
So if you think that with 16,000 members and no big donors at the moment, we are incapable of doing anything, why are you complaining about those of us who have a plan to try and rectify this problem, even if it means we need to become MEPs. Yes, Ray's plan and my plan involve getting elected as MEPs but what choice do we have. We both are family men with children and need to earn some sort of income. I don't think my present employer, or Ray's would take kindly to us spending two or three days a week trooping around the country, meeting with different Southeast branches committees, leafleting, canvassing etc. So unless you are prepared to pay my salary to do all this, and indeed donate funds to branches to assist them in starting membership recruitment schemes, or training sessions for their PPCs and branch officers, I will just have to try and become an MEP.
And as for using EU money - better it be used by people like Ray and I than by some Tory MEP to fund an extension on his country mansion.
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UKIP has ceased to exist as a vehicle to get MP's elected and has no solution to turn this around. You can have all the policies in the world, but just who is listening?
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I believe I have a solution to turn the current situation around. I know others who think as I do in regions outside the Southeast who are also seeking to become MEPs for the exact same reasons. If elected will our proposed solutions work? Maybe or maybe not. But at least we are offering a solution. If you don't like it, then you should come up with a better one.
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If next year's euro elections do not turn out as the party hopes, and even the number of MEP's falls, what will UKIP have left to give?
Remember that UKIP failure will be used by the euphiles as a proxy for failure of the desire to leave the EU. A failing UKIP will damage the cause, which is why I am suggesting looking at different strategies instead of waiting for what now, imho, is going to be a ukip car-crash next year.
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But wouldn't failure on UKIP's part in next year's Euro elections likely cause the collapse of the party and clear the decks for this Referendum Party part II that you proposed earlier in this thread.
I'm sorry but I can't figure out what your problem is with us contesting the Euro elections. First you complain that we shouldn't be using EU money to fund the party and criticize those MEP wannabes who are proposing to help build the party into a more formidable electoral force if elected as MEPs. Then you suggest that UKIP should fold up tent in favour of a new version of the Referendum Party. Then you complain that UKIP isn't competitive nationally and suggest that we have no solutions despite having read the platforms of people like Ray and I who believe we do have (partial) solutions to these problems but of course our solutions require us to be elected as MEPs which you are opposed to. Then you complain claim to be worried that UKIP will do poorly in next year's Euro elections despite the fact that you have already called for the creation of a brand new party. You appear to be arguing in circles.