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Dane Clouston · 01-08-2008, 09:56 PM

I do not seem to have got the hang of quotes and responses in contrasting background colours, so please forgive my use of Bold to make the contrast!

quote=Dilke;528955]"Dane, I don’t think the Lib Dems are going to be influenced on the EU by a very small rival party. Arthur Sargill’s Socialist Labour Party doesn’t influence Labour. Except that the very existence of your party weakens the position of the many Lib Dems who want to see the EU reformed. "

I don't see it like that. If the Liberal Party does well in the EU elections, and the LibDems do badly, as I hope they will after their Lisbon perfidy, that ought to make more LibDems think harder about the party's pro-EU conformity.

"You acknowledge that the party has taken a socialist stance on nationalisation, which I believe makes the con Lib claim to be the only true Liberal party null and void;"

The Liberal Party has regrettably taken the same stance in the past before it merged with the SDP . I remember in a Conference in Blackpool speaking against a motion which opposed the privatisation of electricity and water. I said that they were only opposing for opposition's sake and that they would never vote to renationalise either. When it came to the vote I was in a minority of three on electricity and a minority of one on water. So much for my persuasiveness on that occasion! But they had the protest bit between the teeth. And so much for my ability to see the future on this question!

"I accept the con Libs are Liberals but the Liberal Democrats are also a liberal party and now the more effective vehicle for Liberalism."

'Con Libs' instead of Continuity Libs leads me to think more frequently of 'DimLibs' for the LibDems! Perhaps a truce is called for!

"Don’t you think your ideas for universal inheritance would have a better chance of being adopted if championed by the Lib Dems."

Yes, I do, but while I want to see British Universal Inheritance introduced, I would like the Conservative Party to adopt it as the most EU-sceptic of the major parties - or any other EU-sceptic party, but UKIP, astonishingly, is in favour of abolishing inheritance tax altogether, being keen on inequality of opportunity, I suppose. I would not like the policy to help the LibDems. The fewer LibDem MPs there are in the next Parliament, possibly holding the balance of power, the better the chances for the future independence of the UK. Also, such a radical policy is often adopted in mild form by a right of centre party, rather as Disreali made use of steps towards Universal Suffrage to gain power. Then Liberals can build on the back of the small first step.

"Clegg’s new tax policies – reducing the overall tax burden, but giving the proceeds to the low paid – suggests Clegg is on your wave-length."

Clegg thinks only in terms of tax on the stream of income and expenditure rather than on the stock of capital wealth. LibDems talk of redistribution and then merely of a few pence on or off income tax. Many people who expect to inherit, or whose children who expect to inherit, have a blind spot when it comes to the redistribution of inheritance. There is a kind of collective inauthentic pretence that opportunity and social mobility in a capitalist democracy are affected only by education, and not by inheritance of capital. So vast inequalities persist, while people complain earnestly and avoid doing anything about it.

"Personally I want the UK to leave the Common Fisheries Policies, and see major reform of CAP"

Good, but unfortunately the French farmers will never allow the reform that is needed, which is to abolish all agricultural subsidies overnight, as New Zealand did in 1984. We would have to leave the EU to achieve that.

"Unfortunately I usually end up being an apologist for the EU, countering the exaggerations and downright lies peddled by UKIP et al, albeit most of the UKIP rank and file are decent people who sincerely believe it to be true. And the con Libs takes at face value some of the distortions, like the :The EU has not had its budget and spending successfully audited and signed off for 11 years Line; however as a Danish Liberal MEP has pointed out this is because national governments have failed to account for funds, not because the EU is institutionally corrupt. Rather ironic that the con Libs parrot a UKIP line and ignore an explanation from a Liberal."

My impression is that there is more to EU corruption than that. A lady Accountant, amongst others who questioned matters, was given the boot, I seem to remember reading in our national press. The very fact that accounts are not closed off, for whatever reason, would seem to facilitate fraud.

"When it comes to reforming the EU it is commissioners and MEPs from our sister Liberal parties who are leading the way."

Unfortunately, they mostly accept the ideal of "ever closer union", which I wish I had realised in 1975 was a serious and almost religious ideal, to which I am strongly opposed. I prefer a Europe of cooperative but independent progressive nations. I do not like being ruled in so many tiresome ways from Brussels. I would personally like one UK Liberal Party including the LibDems that would take us out of full membership of the EU, but not an EU-fanatic/phile/phoric Liberal Democrat one!

01-08-2008, 09:56 PM	#64 (permalink)
Dane Clouston Newbie Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 4	I do not seem to have got the hang of quotes and responses in contrasting background colours, so please forgive my use of Bold to make the contrast! quote=Dilke;528955]"Dane, I don’t think the Lib Dems are going to be influenced on the EU by a very small rival party. Arthur Sargill’s Socialist Labour Party doesn’t influence Labour. Except that the very existence of your party weakens the position of the many Lib Dems who want to see the EU reformed. " I don't see it like that. If the Liberal Party does well in the EU elections, and the LibDems do badly, as I hope they will after their Lisbon perfidy, that ought to make more LibDems think harder about the party's pro-EU conformity. "You acknowledge that the party has taken a socialist stance on nationalisation, which I believe makes the con Lib claim to be the only true Liberal party null and void;" The Liberal Party has regrettably taken the same stance in the past before it merged with the SDP . I remember in a Conference in Blackpool speaking against a motion which opposed the privatisation of electricity and water. I said that they were only opposing for opposition's sake and that they would never vote to renationalise either. When it came to the vote I was in a minority of three on electricity and a minority of one on water. So much for my persuasiveness on that occasion! But they had the protest bit between the teeth. And so much for my ability to see the future on this question! "I accept the con Libs are Liberals but the Liberal Democrats are also a liberal party and now the more effective vehicle for Liberalism." 'Con Libs' instead of Continuity Libs leads me to think more frequently of 'DimLibs' for the LibDems! Perhaps a truce is called for! "Don’t you think your ideas for universal inheritance would have a better chance of being adopted if championed by the Lib Dems." Yes, I do, but while I want to see British Universal Inheritance introduced, I would like the Conservative Party to adopt it as the most EU-sceptic of the major parties - or any other EU-sceptic party, but UKIP, astonishingly, is in favour of abolishing inheritance tax altogether, being keen on inequality of opportunity, I suppose. I would not like the policy to help the LibDems. The fewer LibDem MPs there are in the next Parliament, possibly holding the balance of power, the better the chances for the future independence of the UK. Also, such a radical policy is often adopted in mild form by a right of centre party, rather as Disreali made use of steps towards Universal Suffrage to gain power. Then Liberals can build on the back of the small first step. "Clegg’s new tax policies – reducing the overall tax burden, but giving the proceeds to the low paid – suggests Clegg is on your wave-length." Clegg thinks only in terms of tax on the stream of income and expenditure rather than on the stock of capital wealth. LibDems talk of redistribution and then merely of a few pence on or off income tax. Many people who expect to inherit, or whose children who expect to inherit, have a blind spot when it comes to the redistribution of inheritance. There is a kind of collective inauthentic pretence that opportunity and social mobility in a capitalist democracy are affected only by education, and not by inheritance of capital. So vast inequalities persist, while people complain earnestly and avoid doing anything about it. "Personally I want the UK to leave the Common Fisheries Policies, and see major reform of CAP" Good, but unfortunately the French farmers will never allow the reform that is needed, which is to abolish all agricultural subsidies overnight, as New Zealand did in 1984. We would have to leave the EU to achieve that. "Unfortunately I usually end up being an apologist for the EU, countering the exaggerations and downright lies peddled by UKIP et al, albeit most of the UKIP rank and file are decent people who sincerely believe it to be true. And the con Libs takes at face value some of the distortions, like the :The EU has not had its budget and spending successfully audited and signed off for 11 years Line; however as a Danish Liberal MEP has pointed out this is because national governments have failed to account for funds, not because the EU is institutionally corrupt. Rather ironic that the con Libs parrot a UKIP line and ignore an explanation from a Liberal." My impression is that there is more to EU corruption than that. A lady Accountant, amongst others who questioned matters, was given the boot, I seem to remember reading in our national press. The very fact that accounts are not closed off, for whatever reason, would seem to facilitate fraud. "When it comes to reforming the EU it is commissioners and MEPs from our sister Liberal parties who are leading the way." Unfortunately, they mostly accept the ideal of "ever closer union", which I wish I had realised in 1975 was a serious and almost religious ideal, to which I am strongly opposed. I prefer a Europe of cooperative but independent progressive nations. I do not like being ruled in so many tiresome ways from Brussels. I would personally like one UK Liberal Party including the LibDems that would take us out of full membership of the EU, but not an EU-fanatic/phile/phoric Liberal Democrat one!